Matt21
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 10:45 AM |
|
|
Write offs - legalities
My in laws are having a bit of difficulty at the moment.
They bought a volvo xc90 in 2012, it was a 2009/10 model so wont have been cheap.
They had an RAC hpi check carried out and all was good.
They have recently been to px the volvo and was told by the garage that it was recorded as a CAT B write off in 2010/11
They contacted the insurance company and was told that it had not been recorded as a write off until 2014!!
They were also told that it is not a legal requirement for the insurance to record it as a write off.
So now they have a car that they will be most likely unable to sell, and it will be worth next to nothing! and they paid full market price for it
The RAC hpi check is only guaranteed for 12months, so that's no good to them.
From what I understood, cat b cars aren't allowed back on the road and have to be stripped for parts and the chassis crushed
Doe anyone know anymore about this and what can be done to sort it out.
Obviously someone somewhere has done a dodgey deed!
|
|
|
|
|
loggyboy
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 10:54 AM |
|
|
I thought CAT B couldnt be put back on road?
Mistral Motorsport
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 11:09 AM |
|
|
Something very fishy here sounds like either a cloned car or an error in records.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
ravingfool
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 11:09 AM |
|
|
I really hope this is a rarity, sounds very odd.
I can't help on the legalities of cat b and registration of those matters.
Separately though my first question is:
Aside from annoyance and all the rest of it, what is the value of their the loss? They need to work this out first because it puts everything in
perspective.
Then, where did they buy it? Hopefully from a company or at least a trader so that they can benefit from all the consumer legislation protections
rather than from a private individual where the principle of 'caveat emptor' would apply.
If the RAC check is out of time and I think they'll also be well past any credit card protection too (12 months off the top of my head?) then
suspect their only real option is to demand (and potentially sue) for recovery of their loss in the value of the car from the people they bought it
from but that may not be possible if bought from an individual. The more paperwork they have from that time the better, they need to show that it
wasn't openly advertised as written off etc.
It's complicated though because since purchase you have both natural depreciation and loss in value because of the categorisation which need to
be separated.
If it's legally on the road now though (can't comment on that) then it will still have some value, so it may be they've not really
lost as much as it would seem. It may just be rather more difficult to sell.
It's the lack of realistic route to recovery which would prevent me spending any significant amount of money on a private purchase of a car (and
not having a significant amount of money to spend stops me spending it at a garage or anywhere else!)
|
|
|
theduck
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 12:07 PM |
|
|
If it is CAT B it should never have gone back on the road -
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/motor-valuation.html#16
I would be checking VIN numbers etc to make sure it isnt a ringer.
|
|
|
HowardB
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 12:26 PM |
|
|
perhaps it is the ringer that has been written off?
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again  and goes zoom)
|
|
|
Matt21
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 01:06 PM |
|
|
Good replies, I shall pass the info on and see if they can make use of it.
It was also from a private seller, not a garage/dealer I don't think, I will check though.
He may also have been stung but wouldn't have known as it wasn't recorded as a cat b until after he had sold it, thankfully for him.
To me, it seems like there's 2 people who have done something wrong.
first is the salvage company or the guy who bought it off the insurance company who didn't destroy it and put it back on the road.
secondly is the insurance company for not declaring it as a write off. Leaving someone to go and buy it at full market value.
But what can you even do about that?! they have called all sorts of people and don't seem to be getting anywhere with it
[Edited on 25/9/15 by Matt21]
|
|
|
HowardB
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 01:10 PM |
|
|
try CAB for advice,...
?
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 01:25 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
perhaps it is the ringer that has been written off?
That is also what I suspect. I may be some kind of racket.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
Slimy38
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 01:29 PM |
|
|
This might be an obvious question, but does it show signs of being a fixed up write off? Normal stuff such as mismatched panels, squeaky trim, water
leaks, prone to rust etc? From my limited knowledge of Volvo's, I wouldn't expect any of those to be apparent on a five year old car.
[Edited on 24/9/15 by Slimy38]
|
|
|
ianhurley20
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 01:41 PM |
|
|
You can get access to the V23 that wrote it off (form submitted by the insurance company) which will give details of the damage and a date that it
occurred. Insurance companies don't usually have paperwork hanging around for 3 years so I think it is very likely an error in recording but to
be Cat B means very heavy damage, not repairable.
have a look at the V23 - available through reputable data check companies and DVLA
|
|
|
ravingfool
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 01:49 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
perhaps it is the ringer that has been written off?
That is also what I suspect. I may be some kind of racket.
That's an interesting prospect! A case of mistaken identity perhaps. I suspect even if its an entirely innocent mistake it could take quite a
lot of faff to resolve 
|
|
|
Adamirish
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 04:06 PM |
|
|
If an hpi check was carried out at the point of sale and all came back clean then the RAC have to stand over there information. It may well be an
error on the system though. It happens all the time. Ring the company that did the hpi and tell them your issue, get them to redo it using the chassis
number on the car not the reg no. Using the reg no. Can cause problems from time to time with plate changes etc.
I work at a car auction and every single vehicle gets hpi'd so we see these problems all the time. If it's any help to you then pm me the
reg no and chassis no and I can check it for you.
A long while ago we sold a car that came back clean. Later turned out it was a cat B. Hpi stood over there information and paid out our loss. That
wasn't a £17k car though.
MK Indy 1700 Xflow
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 04:27 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by theduck
If it is CAT B it should never have gone back on the road -
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/motor-valuation.html#16
I would be checking VIN numbers etc to make sure it isnt a ringer.
It's not actually illegal for a Cat B to be put back on the road, it's just that the contract between insurers and the vehicle disposal
companies they use forbid them selling complete Cat B cars. Inevitably there are some that slip through the net.
However, it's rather odd that a Cat B marker has been applied retrospectively, I have no idea how or why that would happen.
[Edited on 24/9/15 by MikeRJ]
|
|
|
minibull
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 04:40 PM |
|
|
Do not have any great advice. First step see solicitor re suing seller of vehicle as it is illegal to sell a cat b write off to anyone other than a
licensed breaker. Both cat a & b vehicles can never go back on the road, regardless of level damaged suffered which resulted in these catagories
being recorded. In many cases damage may seem or even be trivial, regardless vehicle must be destroyed. Cat b can be used for parts only, cat a total
destruction. Flood and fire damage are common causes due to risk of contamination, possible weakened structure etc. One of these is also often used
for vehicles involved in fatalities (can't remember which) when vehicle is detroyed to avoid future distress to relatives, used to happen
sometimes when I worked for large motorcycle dealers.
|
|
|
gremlin1234
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 06:37 PM |
|
|
many car insurance policies include 'legal cover' if theirs does, they should use it.
or if they are rac or aa 'members' ask them.
also worth looking as to what the car tax and mot statuses are
https://www.vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/
|
|
|
JoelP
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 07:07 PM |
|
|
Look round it for signs of damage. Cat b on a 20k car is properly smashed to bits, and there will be signs of it.
Good luck.
|
|
|
obfripper
|
| posted on 24/9/15 at 08:10 PM |
|
|
Cat b requires sva/iva to go back on the road, afaik a new vehicle record is created, and the original identity remains written off. The logbook would
be marked as most kits ie :vehicle rebuilt from parts, some of which may not be new, and more than likely would be bearing a q plate.
I would say it is very unlikely that your vehicle has been written off in this way and is an insurance company or dvla mistake, and someone could be
running about with a written off volvo that appears to be hpi clear.
A thorough check of the vin plate/stamped/dashboard on the car just to be sure the car's identity has not been altered is advisable, also
checking the build stickers on the back of the b pillars and in the engine bay, as these usually have the vin on them from the factory and should
match up.
It could have fallen foul of someone else writing off a clone of your vehicle, if it was badly written off the assessor may not have been able to
fully check the identity of the written off car, and assumed the details they had were all correct.
Not every assessor is eagle eyed, i have had a car at work where it was raining so the assessor took a verbal description of damage as his damage
report!
If you can get a copy of the v23 it will hopefully shed light on what has gone wrong, the v23 can be issued by insurer as soon as the cat b is issued
on the vehicle, without even seeing the v5, so is liable to someone insuring the incorrect reg number and writing the 'insured' car
off.
I have seen a couple cars that have had similar problems, supposedly written off while the owners have had the car on the road, but they were not
valuable enough to warrant the cost of finding out what has gone wrong.
Hpi's own indemnity is for 24months now, iirc it used to be an unlimited period for the original check date, when a 3rd party check is carried
out the indemnity falls with the 3rd party and their terms & conditions.
To pursue the original seller, you will need to prove that there was prior knowledge that the vehicle would be receiving a cat b marker, which may be
difficult.
Something that may help is getting a full ownership history from the dvla, as it will show if the vehicle has been in the possesion of any insurance
companies prior to you, i think they will issue this to the current owner with a phone call.
Dave
|
|
|
Matt21
|
| posted on 25/9/15 at 11:48 AM |
|
|
Blimey, thanks all for the very helpful replies.
This has been ongoing for a while now and I know they managed to get a lot of info from the dvla and insurance companies, I just can't remember
what exactly!
I will pass on all your comments and hopefully they can make use of it
From speaking to the insurance company who who it off, they said that it is not a legal requirement for them to declare that a vehicle is written off.
But why they left it for so long is beyond me!
Thanks once again, if anyone has anymore ideas and info, keep it coming!
|
|
|
coozer
|
| posted on 25/9/15 at 03:27 PM |
|
|
Cat B is total loss. To buy one you need a waste disposal license and the V5 must be send back to DVLA.
Not all cat B are heavy damage, one or two go to cat B that have been involved in a fatal, be it running someone over or a collision.
Sounds like a ringer to me..
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
|
|
|
steve m
|
| posted on 25/9/15 at 04:51 PM |
|
|
It can also work the other way
Several years ago I bought a Rover 45, cat c write off, £1800 for a two year old car with body damage, from Blue circle
A grand to repair, and I ran it for 4 ish years until the second head gasket went, and I sold it "as is" on ebay
with a head gasket needed,
the guy who bought it messaged me through ebay, as when he went to sell the car on all fixed, as the new buyer had hpi 'd it
and it was clean, not Cat c, or even any remarks
Unfortunately none of the last 5 have been so lucky
steve
Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at
|
|
|
Matt21
|
| posted on 26/9/15 at 07:40 AM |
|
|
I have just read this paragraph on the financial ombudsman link posted above:
Since 7 April 2003 all category A, B and C vehicles notified to DVLA must pass a Vehicle Identity Check before they can be returned to the road. This
is to confirm that the vehicle is the original registered one and not stolen – its roadworthiness or repairs are not looked at.
Obviously they have a V5C, So I went onto the DVLA website to check if there is a VIC marker, and this is the result:
 
Description
Which says a VIC is required.... :S
My father in law had spoken to a solicitor about it and was told the opposite of what everyone on here has said (I'm not sure exactly what he
was told though)
Something doesn't seem to add up! and certainly seems like someone is in the wrong somewhere!
|
|
|
steve m
|
| posted on 26/9/15 at 07:58 AM |
|
|
"Since 7 April 2003 all category A, B and C vehicles notified to DVLA "
A and B write offs can not be put back on the road, so no Vic is required
Also I have never had to have a Vic done, on any of the 6-7 cars I had repaired, however my current car 2008 Mondeo,
my insurance wanted an MOT done, even though the car was only 16 months old
I only buy cars with panel damage, so there may be a different take on these
1. Overview
If a car is written off by an insurance company a ‘VIC marker’ (Vehicle Identity Check marker) will be placed against the DVLA record.
If you buy a car that has a VIC marker you will not be able to get a V5C vehicle registration certificate (log book) until the car has passed a VIC.
This will mean there will be a delay before you can tax the car. Read guidance on buying a used car.
To remove the VIC marker the car needs to pass a VIC test.
The VIC test compares the details DVLA has about the car against the car itself. It takes place at a Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) test
centre.
steve
[Edited on 26/9/15 by steve m]
Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at
|
|
|
steve m
|
| posted on 26/9/15 at 08:13 AM |
|
|
Just googling , and found this link
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-identity-check/overview
according to the link, you pay £41 for a vic test, and if the car is the car it supposed to be, and passes
the Vic marker is removed
surely a £41 cost is a great deal better against £1000's off its value
steve
Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at
|
|
|
Matt21
|
| posted on 26/9/15 at 09:17 AM |
|
|
Yes, but this should have been done prior to the car going back on the road.
The DVLA VIC check says that the vehicle requires a VIC check, so I assume it hasn't been done! which means it should not be on the road.
The log book should be held with the DVLA until the check has been completed. But the in-laws have the log book for the vehicle.
|
|
|
