stig mills
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| posted on 20/5/16 at 02:32 PM |
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EU and the IVA
I do wonder where the kit car scene would be today without membership of the the EU?
I suspect there would be less rules and any rules that were deemed necessary would be put in place to safe guard the planet or it's
occupants.
When I ask VOSA (DVSA) why certain IVA rules are in place they nearly always come back with just 2 letters, E and U.
IVA is generally seen as a good thing, controlling what could otherwise result in anything safe or not on our roads.
However certain new rules just slipped in without warning effectively deem EV kit cars a thing of the past. The reason is that very costly testing is
now required for what is known as RESS (rechargeable energy storage systems). This is a real shame as it an area where kit car manufacturers are well
positioned to supply lightweight vehicles in the niche EV market. Obviously safety measures need to be in place to protect from electric shock and
fire but I am told all individual vehicles will now need tests which will cost around £6k before an IVA test application will be registered. No
warning, just a kick in the delicates.
Tow bars on kit cars are also a thing of the past as they now have to be laboratory tested (stretched) and E marked as part of the kit car chassis
which is to say the least, cost prohibitive. Last week you could bolt a universal E marked tow ball to your chassis, not this week though!
The goalposts just keep moving. I have the deepest sympathy for anyone building an EV right now. If anyone needs any help on the new ruling please let
me know on info@mevltd.co.uk
What next, any more EU car related rules about to be thrown at us? Who knows?
I receive enquiries every week from other EU members Countries but it is virtually impossible to build your own kit outside of the UK, many bring them
back here to test and register but they appear to be tightening up on that now from our recent discoveries. So Brussels make rules for our kits but
don't allow our kits on their turf.
The problem we face now is that even if we all vote OUT I wonder if the rules be relaxed any time soon?
[Edited on 20/5/16 by stig mills]
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Oddified
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| posted on 20/5/16 at 03:45 PM |
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I think the other way of looking at is, if we do stay in the EU how long will it be before building/radically modifying anything for use on the road
won't be possible any more. Bit by bit that day is coming...
Would the rules be relaxed if we do leave...probably not but at least at the moment we can still make/modify things ourselves if they're done
right.
Ian
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 20/5/16 at 04:29 PM |
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I seem to recall that in Germany,you cant change any part of your car unless that part is TUV tested and you have the car inspected afterwards.
some of our contental brothers have had huge problems getting cars registered....so much for a level playing field.
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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chillis
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| posted on 20/5/16 at 06:25 PM |
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The IVA and the SVA that preceded it were created in the uk by the uk legislators. The EU only mandated the european wide whole vehicle type approval
and instructed member states to put in place a process for one off and low volume for vehicles like fire engines, ambulances etc as it was considered
these vehicles would be based in those jurisdictions. Our government to their credit exploited this loophole to allow for amateur built vehicles.
As for EV I will check with our hybrid and ev vehicle guys but I wouldn't have thought that applies to lead/acid batteries as almost every car
has one.
Some hybrid systems work at high voltages and have capacitor storage together with modern lightweight battery technology (some batteries like lithium
polymer are somewhat prone to auto combustion as is hydrogen) The regulations here will probably sort themselves out and settle down as it is typical
for legislation to be put in place first then adapted to suit what is workable.
Please also be careful not to fall into the old trap as the Brittish government likes to point the finger of blame at the EU when often the unpopular
legislation originated here. its easy for them to hide behind the EU as they know most people don't follow what goes on in the european
parliment - most brits don't even know who there MEP is :\
The european road worthiness directive is a case in point - The EU basically adopted 'our' MOT (which now applies europe wide) yet
we've been given to believe its been imposed upon us.
Never under estimate the ingenuity of an idiot!
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leew2
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| posted on 21/5/16 at 03:40 PM |
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That is not good news, I understand the need for at least some safety testing of batteries, as some electric cars do use very high, potentially lethal
voltages and also certain batteries can go bang (cheap Chinese LiPo for example) but to suddenly have to pay about £6k for testing is taking the
biscuit. Thankfully it looks like my build is not affected as I will be registering it via MSVA and not IVA and it looks like MSVA is not affected
yet, but I am going to get the build completed and registered ASAP, as I don't want to find it's suddenly been added to MSVA too!. Thank
god I was not half way though building a heavy 4 wheel electric car!
I could understand perhaps requiring battery packs to be UN38.3 certified which is a fairly standard test to make sure batteries don't go bang
when they are overcharged, shorted or crushed and batteries can be bought which are already certified.
I am surprised and rather angry that there was no grace period for these new rules like there was a grace period for using BS 857 marked windscreens.
Also there seems to be very little info around on exactly what testing is needed, for example, is it destructive, in which case you need to add the
cost of however many batteries are required for the test on top of the £6k?
quote:
Originally posted by stig mills
I do wonder where the kit car scene would be today without membership of the the EU?
I suspect there would be less rules and any rules that were deemed necessary would be put in place to safe guard the planet or it's
occupants.
When I ask VOSA (DVSA) why certain IVA rules are in place they nearly always come back with just 2 letters, E and U.
IVA is generally seen as a good thing, controlling what could otherwise result in anything safe or not on our roads.
However certain new rules just slipped in without warning effectively deem EV kit cars a thing of the past. The reason is that very costly testing is
now required for what is known as RESS (rechargeable energy storage systems). This is a real shame as it an area where kit car manufacturers are well
positioned to supply lightweight vehicles in the niche EV market. Obviously safety measures need to be in place to protect from electric shock and
fire but I am told all individual vehicles will now need tests which will cost around £6k before an IVA test application will be registered. No
warning, just a kick in the delicates.
Tow bars on kit cars are also a thing of the past as they now have to be laboratory tested (stretched) and E marked as part of the kit car chassis
which is to say the least, cost prohibitive. Last week you could bolt a universal E marked tow ball to your chassis, not this week though!
The goalposts just keep moving. I have the deepest sympathy for anyone building an EV right now. If anyone needs any help on the new ruling please let
me know on info@mevltd.co.uk
What next, any more EU car related rules about to be thrown at us? Who knows?
I receive enquiries every week from other EU members Countries but it is virtually impossible to build your own kit outside of the UK, many bring them
back here to test and register but they appear to be tightening up on that now from our recent discoveries. So Brussels make rules for our kits but
don't allow our kits on their turf.
The problem we face now is that even if we all vote OUT I wonder if the rules be relaxed any time soon?
[Edited on 20/5/16 by stig mills]
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leew2
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| posted on 24/6/16 at 07:23 PM |
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Ok, so we have voted for a BREXIT, any idea when this stupid law will be tossed in the trash where it belongs? While we are at it, it would be nice
to bin off the IVA and go back to the old SVA.
I wanna build my dream car, which at the moment looks unlikely if I need to spend 6k on testing, of which I can't seem to find any information
on what exactly is tested, the requirements of my car and how it's tested (I.E. is it destructive?).
[Edited on 24/6/16 by leew2]
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stig mills
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| posted on 4/7/16 at 11:29 AM |
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new rules now held off until Nov 1st
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 4/7/16 at 06:24 PM |
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Where can copies of these rules be found? Please?
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Benzine
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| posted on 4/7/16 at 07:27 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
Where can copies of these rules be found? Please?
+1. Any sources/news/info would be good.
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chillis
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| posted on 4/7/16 at 07:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by leew2
Ok, so we have voted for a BREXIT, any idea when this stupid law will be tossed in the trash where it belongs? While we are at it, it would be nice
to bin off the IVA and go back to the old SVA.
I wanna build my dream car, which at the moment looks unlikely if I need to spend 6k on testing, of which I can't seem to find any information
on what exactly is tested, the requirements of my car and how it's tested (I.E. is it destructive?).
[Edited on 24/6/16 by leew2]
As said previously the IVA does not come from the EU directly, they only mandated that some form of testing existed. Its highly unlikely the UK
government will revoke it, this you will have understood if you took part in the consultation process that preceded its implementation. Many
stakeholders including VOSA and the Police wanted to make the IVA much tougher and to use it to essentially prevent post registration modifications.
VCA rightly defended this stating their job was only to provide a process to register new 'one off' or specially converted vehicles.
Please also be aware that many safety and environmental concerns are dictated by the UN e.c.e not Brussels.
Never under estimate the ingenuity of an idiot!
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stig mills
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| posted on 5/7/16 at 10:08 AM |
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email from DVSA below;
Government Security Classification - OFFICIAL
Thank you for your continued correspondence, without prejudice to the previous communications you've received I'd like to provide you with
the following which will also be communicated to our engineers & technical support staff.
Today I have agreed with DfT a stay of implementation for Reg 100 within IVA, in part by pressing the industries’ case. Therefore, DVSA & DfT can
guarantee that this legislation will not take effect in IVA before 1 November 2016. However, you should continue to make plans to obtain a suitable
test report by 1 November 2016 as vehicles submitted after this date may be required to demonstrate full compliance as part of the application
evidence.
DVSA propose to leave the N1 manual unchanged & to update the M1 manual imminently. This will allow stakeholders to familiarise themselves with
the impending requirements ahead of implementation.
Notwithstanding all of the above our engineers will continue to make necessary & suitable assessments under the general construction section to
ensure that any systems are safe, secure & installed without interference to other components under the requirements of IVA.
Product Specialist (Specialist Vehicle Tests and Approvals)
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency
Phone: +44 (0) 300 123 9000
cid:_4_08E772F808E7708C0042C1CF80257FA4
Read more: http://mevowners.proboards.com/thread/2788/jack-dads-build-rocket#ixzz4DWlbc654
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 5/7/16 at 10:57 AM |
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Firstly, all these rules for cars are from ECE, a division of United Nations, which makes rules for cars used worldwide, and referred to as ECE. ***
rule numbers. EU/EC has little to do with the rule formations as such, as the rules are formulated by a world based forum of 'Technical
Experts'.
After a talk with a very nice gentleman at VOSA, I finally got a web address for the rules that are about to be implemented for electric cars.
http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2010/wp29/ECE-TRANS-WP29-2010-52e.pdf
That should get you all the info you need.
And the estimated costs of tests from MIRA are ~£8k per car!!!! If all are identical, then the cost is once.
Cheers,
Nev.
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stig mills
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| posted on 5/7/16 at 11:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
Firstly, all these rules for cars are from ECE, a division of United Nations, which makes rules for cars used worldwide, and referred to as ECE. ***
rule numbers. EU/EC has little to do with the rule formations as such, as the rules are formulated by a world based forum of 'Technical
Experts'.
After a talk with a very nice gentleman at VOSA, I finally got a web address for the rules that are about to be implemented for electric cars.
http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2010/wp29/ECE-TRANS-WP29-2010-52e.pdf
That should get you all the info you need.
And the estimated costs of tests from MIRA are ~£8k per car!!!! If all are identical, then the cost is once.
Cheers,
Nev.
NOT APPLICABLE UNTIL NOV 1st
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 5/7/16 at 03:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stig mills
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
Firstly, all these rules for cars are from ECE, a division of United Nations, which makes rules for cars used worldwide, and referred to as ECE. ***
rule numbers. EU/EC has little to do with the rule formations as such, as the rules are formulated by a world based forum of 'Technical
Experts'.
After a talk with a very nice gentleman at VOSA, I finally got a web address for the rules that are about to be implemented for electric cars.
http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2010/wp29/ECE-TRANS-WP29-2010-52e.pdf
That should get you all the info you need.
And the estimated costs of tests from MIRA are ~£8k per car!!!! If all are identical, then the cost is once.
Cheers,
Nev.
NOT APPLICABLE UNTIL NOV 1st
YOU DON'T HAVE TO YELL!!!!!  I'm not an effing idiot, and I'm not stupid. And November is only three and a bit months away, and
will come as quick as next week.
I am well aware of the situation after this morning's chat. And those rules may be implemented later than November. But, due to them being the
ece regs, it's fairly easy to just put in the ece number. Far too easy.
The cost is the big problem. Far too excessive for what I see as a day's work for a test technician.
The essence of the regs is that the batteries need to be able to be disconnected without using tools, everything is properly insulated, overheat and
overcharge cutouts are in place, and there's a fan to get rid of any hydrogen generated when charging. Also make a big thing of not using the
chassis as part of the electrical circuits. So that just means a two wire system all through. Who would want want the voltages and currents necessary
going through a chassis anyway? Certainly not me. A few more bits and pieces, but that is the essentials of it. Lucky it's only 45 pages,
unlike some of the ece regs.
Electric vehicles may also be getting their own unique set of IVA regs as well.
The thing that concerns me with electric cars with regen is testing the brakes. If done with regen off, then the efficiencies will be way different to
regen on, and brake balance will differ wildly. The gent on the phone agreed, and mentioned that this situation is being looked into as we spoke.
I've already got it sorted using a custom abs controller but it's not something a home leccy car builder would normally create.
Oh, and R E S S stands for RECHARGEABLE electric storage systems, not Regenerative as some may think. SO, applies to all electric vehicles.
Cheers
Nev.
[Edited on 5/7/16 by Neville Jones]
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