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First car ideas!

raguri - 1/8/12 at 10:58 AM

Hi all,
Just about to start driving (end of august!) and have been doing some research into the best car/insurance options.
Until recently, the idea was to use my brothers old Rover Cooper 1.3i, but footman james have decided to cancel classic insurance for young drivers, and as a result my cheapest quote was around Ł3k which is far to much.
I have also had a look at kit cars, looking at the duttons (Ugly as sin), and the quantum 2+2/Coupe. So far, the quantum seems like the better deal (around 1500 to buy, same again to insure fully comp with unlimited miles). But, does anyone have experience with these cars?
I wont be afraid to do some work myself, as i'm starting a b-tech in automotive technology in september, giving me access to tools etc that your average 17 year old probably wont have.
So this is a two way question:
A) Has anyone had experience with the quantums? Good/bad?
B) Does anyone know of any way i can still insure a car under a classic policy? After going to Silverstone Classic, i would love an mg B. But again, insurance would require selling a limb.

Thanks a lot,
Sam

maccmike - 1/8/12 at 11:38 AM

Hi Sam, welcome.
I think its a good choice to buy a kit car as from my experience insurance is cheaper than normal cars. I have no experience of either model you mention but start with something low powered, and in time as you get older and with your mechanical expertease increasing, you can put a beafier engine in.
Keep us updated with what you do.
Mike.

raguri - 1/8/12 at 11:48 AM

Hi Mike, and thanks for the welcome.
I've popped my head out a bit before, but realised now's the time to be asking questions.
I believe the quantum is a 1.6 cvh as standard from an xr2i... Infact, i believe it is just an xr2i with a GRP body instead of the usual 'sensible' hatchback. I've done a fair bit of research myself, and found that both the zetec and rs turbo engines are a relatively simple swap for when i want a bit for power.
Also had a look at the ginetta g32, but not sure where i stand with insurance as it's technically not a kit car as it was type approved... yet, no normal insurers have heard of them
Sam

bi22le - 1/8/12 at 11:52 AM

Try other Kit car insurance companies as many do classic insurance and the difference in cost between them is frightening so age allouances may also be as different between the companies.

For me, when buying, the main consideration is availability of knowledge and parts. You dont want to buy a car that nobody knows where to get parts from or knows anything about.

maccmike - 1/8/12 at 11:58 AM

personally, Id be patient and troll piston heads, here, ebay etc. When you see a suitable car, regardless of brand, ring an insurance company.
My car is a one off trike. No body other than adrian flux will insure it.
Dont bother with compare etc you need to phone specialists when the times right.
Things like removable steering wheels etc can help reduce the premium, and cheap to buy and fit.
Maybe insuring a family member can reduce it too, as will limited mileage.

loggyboy - 1/8/12 at 12:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by maccmike
personally, Id be patient and troll piston heads, here, ebay etc.

I would trawl, not troll.. thats a quick way to get banned from most forums! lol

raguri - 1/8/12 at 12:04 PM

Unfortunately, i've rang all the main Kit car/classic insurers and most have age restrictions of either 21/19. So far, Footman James are the only kit car insurers i've found that will insure me, or i go through the Quantum owners club if i go that route.
The family member is also essential for the insurance, as there needs to be someone over 21 on the policy (not sure whether this is to cover a potential legal problem).
The one downfall (okay, the one main downfall) of the ginetta, is the parts as i'm guessing most of them are bespoke to that car.
I'm amazed that a removable steering wheel boss can bring the cost down! Saw the results of a failure of one on here a while back, blue rizla locost if i'm correct? So that's put me off a bit, but if it would bring it down then i may have to start considering it.
And don't worry, i wont be up to any trolling!

MK9R - 1/8/12 at 01:56 PM

Try a gtm rossa or coupe, mini based and very cheap to insure. I bought a rossa off a lad who had had it as his first car and was oonly a few hundred pounds to insure as its was only a 1.3 engine.

raguri - 1/8/12 at 02:55 PM

The coupe's a gorgeous looking car, however, they are rather rare and expensive when one is up for sale :/
Think the current list goes:

Quantum 2+2/coupe
Dutton Legerra
GTM Rossa (If i can find one), or any other GTM.

Realistically, any kit car >1.6 really, that can be used practically (Already planning a road trip for my 18th to Norway). Hence why a locost isn't in the choices! Oh, and needs to be cheap of course

Anyone have any other suggestions?

coyoteboy - 1/8/12 at 03:51 PM

Personally I would avoid a kit car as a first car for two reasons.

1) If it becomes a common thing it's going to be an excuse for insurers to ramp up prices for the rest of us who've spent years waiting to own one lol
2) Very few new drivers are equipped and experienced to drive a kit-like car and they're highly likely to end up dead fairly quick. All the kids I knew who were rich enough to own expensive fast cars wrote them off in very short order, but were generally ok because of the inherent safety features.

My first car suggestions are something cheap, reasonable handling and cheap to run with as few electronics as possible. Pug 205/306? Fun cars, nippy and cheap to insure.

maccmike - 1/8/12 at 05:29 PM

I personally disagree with coyoteboy, others may not.
The first cars I drove were; an HF integrale. An xr3i in anger at Oulton. And powersliding an M3 on a skid pan, this was whilst I still had no pubes and class mates were squeezing spots and drinking 20/20. Touch wood Iv never had a crash......
When you build/add to something yourself, you have more mechanical sympathy I think.
Kit cars usually weigh as much as rizzla paper, so even a 1.6 cvh will be quick compared to any of your mates cars but as soon as you mention which vehicle the engines from to the insurance, you'll get spanked.
Post xr2 engine, finding a descent RS will be difficult for the right money, besides theyre not that quick, by comparison, fords new ecoboost is a 1.0 turbo 3 pot 125bhp, superchips boost them to 145bhp under warranty.
That would spank an RS engine, more economical, be cheaper to insure and sound better. Of course its only an example as you'd pay a fortune just to buy the engine, but you get the gist.. Think broadly and dont get bogged down by one donor engine preference.
In addition, Im sure theres young driver training scheme things that some insurance companies recognise, and then theres the I.A.M. which Im a member of, thats saved me a few quid over the years.

maccmike - 1/8/12 at 05:34 PM

ps RS - Escort/fiesta turbo not Focus

raguri - 1/8/12 at 05:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Personally I would avoid a kit car as a first car for two reasons.

1) If it becomes a common thing it's going to be an excuse for insurers to ramp up prices for the rest of us who've spent years waiting to own one lol
2) Very few new drivers are equipped and experienced to drive a kit-like car and they're highly likely to end up dead fairly quick. All the kids I knew who were rich enough to own expensive fast cars wrote them off in very short order, but were generally ok because of the inherent safety features.

My first car suggestions are something cheap, reasonable handling and cheap to run with as few electronics as possible. Pug 205/306? Fun cars, nippy and cheap to insure.

Both pugs so far have quotes between 3-7k... 3 was for 3000 limited miles, which is insane.
The insurance will always be cheaper for kit cars than it is with 'conventional' cars, so i hardly doubt that a single 17 year old will change that? And even if it did surely it would only change it for my age band?
As for the "Speed" aspect of the kit car scene, personally i think that is an advantage. In my view, most 17 year olds get stuck with 1.0 cars, which they feel they need to rev the nuts off to go anywhere in as a way of proving they're still "masculine", when in fact they just look like an idiot in a ruined saxo. I'm already looking at junior ARDS courses, as well as the usual Pass Plus and IAM. And, i know this is probably a cliche for someone my age to say but i won't be ragging it around if i know that: A) I'll be the one fixing it if i crash, and B) That i'll probably be the only one in that car within a large distance... Couldn't exactly say "Sorry officer, must have been a different kit car that looks exactly like this one" can you?

vanepico - 1/8/12 at 07:14 PM

I'm looking to get a PUG 106D as a first car, got my quotes down to sub Ł800! Then I'll start building a haynes roadster, maybe 1 years no claims will decrease it a bit!

Pete

raguri - 1/8/12 at 07:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by vanepico
I'm looking to get a PUG 106D as a first car, got my quotes down to sub Ł800! Then I'll start building a haynes roadster, maybe 1 years no claims will decrease it a bit!

Pete

Hi Pete,
All i have to say, is HOW!? That's incredible! I couldn't even get an original beetle bellow Ł1.5k. When you say first car, you mean for a 17 year old? (Excuse me being dumb, just amazed!)

Sam

vanepico - 1/8/12 at 07:43 PM

oh no course not, I gave up ever imagining I could have a car that early, I'm 20 with a clean license, 2 years named driver on someone else's car though, which reduces it a bit.

raguri - 1/8/12 at 07:45 PM

Ah right, that explains a lot. Just did a compare the market quote on one, 3k... :/
And still haven't found anyone who's had experience with the quantums.
Already thinking of a possible plan of (if i can get one), taking the 1.6 cvh out, and putting the 1.6 zetec in with a more modern gearbox which should increase the mpg

vanepico - 1/8/12 at 07:50 PM

58 of the finest custard skin pulling horses!

some of my mates have had jobs since they were like 14 so they have all been able to afford cars, I never had a job till now so I'm only just thinking about it.

raguri - 1/8/12 at 07:53 PM

That it may have, and it may take around 15 seconds to 60....
But, you will be getting more MPG than anyone on this site probably!

vanepico - 1/8/12 at 07:59 PM

add into that using biofuel and it'll be cheaper than walking!

morcus - 2/8/12 at 02:50 AM

Not what you want to hear, but waiting is your best option, or see if you can be a named driver on someone else's policy for a year or two.

Don't be to confident in your abilities either. everyone says they're not going to crash, but alot of people still crash, and no matter how good a driver you are, you can still be hit by someone else, and if you don't have the experience of someone who's been driving longer you will be at a disadvantage. I know alot of people who've managed to pass their test really quickly and have had no experience of driving in different conditions, the worst being snow or torrential rain, and binned it because they were doing absolutely the wrong thing.

vanepico - 2/8/12 at 05:45 AM

The most scary lesson about just how much traction you lose in wet/greasy roads came when I was cycling up to a roundabout pretty quick, slammed on the brakes and did a 6 foot skid It wasn't as funny back then though!

I'd say if you've got the money, get a car, the no claims bonus will just keep dropping the price, if you can't afford the insurance, wait like me

Oh and try and get your license as quick as possible, I got my license 13 days before my 18th birthday, if you could get it closer to your 17th you may get it cheaper, earlier!

coyoteboy - 2/8/12 at 11:41 AM

quote:

Both pugs so far have quotes between 3-7k... 3 was for 3000 limited miles, which is insane. The insurance will always be cheaper for kit cars than it is with 'conventional' cars, so i hardly doubt that a single 17 year old will change that? And even if it did surely it would only change it for my age band? As for the "Speed" aspect of the kit car scene, personally i think that is an advantage. In my view, most 17 year olds get stuck with 1.0 cars, which they feel they need to rev the nuts off to go anywhere in as a way of proving they're still "masculine", when in fact they just look like an idiot in a ruined saxo. I'm already looking at junior ARDS courses, as well as the usual Pass Plus and IAM. And, i know this is probably a cliche for someone my age to say but i won't be ragging it around if i know that: A) I'll be the one fixing it if i crash, and B) That i'll probably be the only one in that car within a large distance... Couldn't exactly say "Sorry officer, must have been a different kit car that looks exactly like this one" can you?

What model? The 1.4's were notably higher than the 1 and 1.1 205s. That said, they could be hitting them now as they're getting rarer and more likely to result in personal injury claims than a modern car I suppose. Don't just check the compare sites, they're generally useless for anyone but the most average of drivers with a decent record.

Speed doesn't kill, the inability to judge one's skills does - doesn't matter what car you're in but having an underpowered slow car simply removes SOME of the risk that you'll make a mess of it - if you can't hit 90 before the bend you won't go through the bend at 90, you'll go through it at 60. If you can't put enough torque to the rear wheels to get the tail out mid-bend it's another complication you won't have to deal with. There's a reason they dial understeer into shopping trolley cars - because most inexperienced folk can't handle a sudden oversteer event, especially not when new drivers. Sure it might not handle quite as well as a fast car but you can fix that to some extent, giving you the best of all worlds. I went from a 1.1 44hp pug to a 300hp 4wd toyota overnight. I know pretty much for a fact that if I'd had that kind of power-to-weight when I was 18 I'd be dead now, as it is the worst mistakes I made were generally from braking too late but at least I wasn't going that fast in the first place and had a bit of meat around the seats. I've made some mistakes while driving that that there's no way I'd have been able to judge/correct aged 20, I just didn't have enough experience. We all say "I won't drive fast or show off" but we all do at some point. IF you can show off spectacularly it'll go wrong spectacularly!

Two other points. Pass plus/IAM made no difference at all to my insurance premiums, so check it out first. As for your points A) you have to be alive to be fixing it and B) You have a number plate on no matter what the car, they don't take guesses based on car type and colour!

I think if I were to start driving these days I'd buy the tattiest old shed of a car I could find and learn to cycle more, while building up my NCB.

[Edited on 2/8/12 by coyoteboy]

Ninehigh - 2/8/12 at 12:28 PM

Have you considered one of those where they install a box to track you? They're supposed to be cheaper.

Also: http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=165169&page=0&contribmessage=none

Iirc a Morris Minor, old beetle and the 80's mini came out at around Ł1300 ish for a new driver (not sure if that's with me on or on his own)

maccmike - 2/8/12 at 12:34 PM

ring an insurance company, ask them what the cheapest car is to drive - it'll be cheap and shit.
Next, find a dodgy scrap yard and buy the log book for said vehicle.
Insure it, build up your ncb whilst you build your proper car. Oh and buy a pedal bike.

Or, buy a vtec powered z car mini, and insure it as a standard 850cc.

Rollocks to it wahahaha

hughpinder - 2/8/12 at 12:44 PM

Didn't someone one here mange to insure a scooter for a couple of years, and successfully transfer the NCB onto their first car? Or I may just be imagining that!
Best of luck anyway!
Hugh

eddie99 - 2/8/12 at 12:54 PM

Good to see another young member on here, Adrian flux, footman james and best of all was MSM insurance.

At 19, i was paying just over a grand on a 1.8 61 plate seven with 4.5k miles and agreed value of 8k. Thats with MSM.

raguri - 2/8/12 at 05:06 PM

Wow this has had a lot of activity whilst i was away.
Decided to leave it until Donnington to make up my mind entirely, as it means i can have a look at the cars in question and see how safe they actually are. The only way to get cheap insurance on a "normal" car i've found, is to get something old, or incredibly new. However, the older cars will have next to no safety rating at all, and the newer cars are incredibly expensive to buy.
I know some of you will be thinking "He's young, he's going to be a fool in a car", but after seeing my brother right off two cars in the space of a month, i wont exactly be messing around. And with the addition of my best friend loosing all feeling and movement in his right arm (luckily, it's coming back slowly) 4 months ago after an accidental hit and run, it's re-inforced this even more. The black box idea, whilst good, is still only Ł200 cheaper, for less car.
I would get a motorbike/scooter, however, after both my dad and mum had an accident ages ago, they have both said that if my brother or I ever ride when we're living under the roof, they will kick us out.
My heart is set on a quantum if possible, with insurance at Ł1500, fully comp and unlimited mileage, it'd save quite a lot.

Sam