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what the f***?!

A1 - 20/9/09 at 01:13 PM

just look and weep...how to destroy a brilliant car even more...

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/First-Official-Pictures/Subaru-Impreza-diesel-2009-first-photos/

flak monkey - 20/9/09 at 01:17 PM

Now wrong with a performance diesel

Could do with a bit of a tweak to take it to closer to 200bhp.

You'd be suprised how quick it would be as well

scootz - 20/9/09 at 01:22 PM

You're not suggesting that any of the non-WRX / STi cars have EVER been even remotely attractive or appealing?

blakep82 - 20/9/09 at 01:23 PM

sounds pretty good to me actually. diesels are pretty good these days! better than petrol in a lot of cases

prawnabie - 20/9/09 at 01:25 PM

Just wait until all the WRX cars are diesel! Glory supporters come to mind lol

MikeRJ - 20/9/09 at 01:26 PM

Hmm, not only will it sound like a 4 pot engine running on three cylinders, but it will sound like a Taxi as well

MakeEverything - 20/9/09 at 01:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Now wrong with a performance diesel

Could do with a bit of a tweak to take it to closer to 200bhp.

You'd be suprised how quick it would be as well

^^Ditto.

Ive got a 130 TDCi Mondeo, and it is surprisingly well performed. Plenty of torque, and enough power for a family saloon.

scootz - 20/9/09 at 01:39 PM

I remember they were doing a supermini challenge on Top-Gear and the Skoda Fabia vRS (diesel) trounced all the petrol cars with it's point to point grunt.

rusty nuts - 20/9/09 at 01:58 PM

Modern diesels are so much more refined than they use to be. Even a little Citroen C3 1.4 flies as do Audi ,VW etc without sounding like a tractor and stopping at a petrol station every few miles. Better performance than a lot of petrol engines

hillbillyracer - 20/9/09 at 02:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
Modern diesels are so much more refined than they use to be. Even a little Citroen C3 1.4 flies as do Audi ,VW etc without sounding like a tractor and stopping at a petrol station every few miles. Better performance than a lot of petrol engines

My girlfriend has a C3 1.4 HDI, I did'nt really want to like it but if all you want is no-nonsense transport it's hard to beat, all the go it needs, can do long journies in comfort & the handling is fine so long as it's not pushed on to much.
Scooby have lacked a diesel in their line up for too long!

Ben_Copeland - 20/9/09 at 02:19 PM

Only 148bhp or the impreza tho

My mondeo is 155bhp diesel. So why didnt they get 200bhp straight out the box

About time they woke up and joined the diesel race, but they are kinda starting at the back!

rusty nuts - 20/9/09 at 02:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by hillbillyracer

quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
Modern diesels are so much more refined than they use to be. Even a little Citroen C3 1.4 flies as do Audi ,VW etc without sounding like a tractor and stopping at a petrol station every few miles. Better performance than a lot of petrol engines

My girlfriend has a C3 1.4 HDI, I did'nt really want to like it but if all you want is no-nonsense transport it's hard to beat, all the go it needs, can do long journies in comfort & the handling is fine so long as it's not pushed on to much.
Scooby have lacked a diesel in their line up for too long!

Try the 16valve engine , well impressed.

zetec mike - 20/9/09 at 02:56 PM

Just look at the results from Lemans 24hrs for the last few years.

hillbillyracer - 20/9/09 at 03:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
Only 148bhp or the impreza tho

My mondeo is 155bhp diesel. So why didnt they get 200bhp straight out the box

About time they woke up and joined the diesel race, but they are kinda starting at the back!

Yes the power is nothing startling but how much do you need?! Folk used to rave about the power a "red i" VW/Audi have & they were 110! Knocking on 150bhp & bags of torque in something that size won't be slow & after all why did you buy a diesel? Using the power wont get you diesel economy, it'll never hold a candle to a 2.0 turbo but then non of the last generation Imprezza would do 50mpg.
My VW Transporter has 102bhp, so it's out-gunned by a fair few more modern vans in it's class but it's more than quick enough & never struggles towing. It's quite easy to tweak it to 150 but there's just no need.

BenB - 20/9/09 at 03:33 PM

I quite like diesels. My Megane pulls well, does 55-60mpg and is smooth as a cucumber.

Still sounds like a turbo'd diesel though....

MikeRJ - 20/9/09 at 04:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I remember they were doing a supermini challenge on Top-Gear and the Skoda Fabia vRS (diesel) trounced all the petrol cars with it's point to point grunt.

Must have missed that one, what cars was the Fabia up against?

Richard Quinn - 20/9/09 at 04:44 PM

I know I keep banging on about it but I have a BMW123D which is only a 4 pot but twin turbo. It's 204bhp with diesel torque. The only issue with any of these cars is that they run out of puff in lower gears quickly.

iank - 20/9/09 at 05:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I remember they were doing a supermini challenge on Top-Gear and the Skoda Fabia vRS (diesel) trounced all the petrol cars with it's point to point grunt.

Must have missed that one, what cars was the Fabia up against?

Mini cooper
Still on the tube if you want to watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8rPhOApnSA

nstrug - 20/9/09 at 07:39 PM

My 2000 BMW 330d Touring (originally 184bhp/288lbft, chipped to 225 bhp/350lbft) has 156,000 miles on the clock and has averaged 43.6mpg over the last 4 years.

I would never go back to petrol for an ordinary road car.

A 2009 330d (hopefully my next car) makes 245bhp/384lbft stock, and gets 47.9mpg on the combined cycle.

The torque and in-gear acceleration of modern diesels really needs to be experienced, the only downside of course is the lack of revs.

Nick

carpmart - 21/9/09 at 08:34 AM

I know weasils make sense but they just aint right for a performance car!

nick205 - 21/9/09 at 01:59 PM

Check out the BTCC Seat TDIs - they work rather well.

phelpsa - 21/9/09 at 02:00 PM

My mum's decided she'll be sticking with her 2006 STi having tried the new Impreza yesterday. Actually her words were slightly stronger than that but that was the outcome of the conversation.

It's the direction subaru have to move in but i'm not sure they're following the right path...

Jasper - 21/9/09 at 02:42 PM

Top Gear reviewed it and hated it, coarse and lumpy and not very good from what I remember ....

flak monkey - 21/9/09 at 03:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jasper
Top Gear reviewed it and hated it, coarse and lumpy and not very good from what I remember ....

No change from the std Impreza then

A 4 cyl boxer engine is never going to be smooth

iank - 21/9/09 at 03:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
I know weasils make sense but they just aint right for a performance car!

Even when they have better performance that petrols?

I think a lot of opinions were formed back when diesels were noisy, heavy, smelly lumps in low performance non-turbo applications. The new common rail ones are night and day compared to ones even 10 years old.

A1 - 22/9/09 at 11:56 AM

its an impreza though! it should have 300+ hp and be petrol!!
i know the racing diesels are doing okay, but even still diesels sound crap and smell awful. ever followed one down the road?
plus theyre more carcinogenic(?) than petrols. and who cares about mileage in cars like that? theyre about performance, not saving half a gallon of fuel.
i just think subaru have made a huge mistake and i hope their sales reflect that. I mean, who likes the new one?

flak monkey - 22/9/09 at 12:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by A1
and who cares about mileage in cars like that? theyre about performance, not saving half a gallon of fuel.

This is the thing you see, performance wise, once rolling a modern diesel will trounce a petrol which has loads more power. The in gear performance is extraordinary. 0-60 isnt so good though.

I say this without word of a lie. I followed an older (Mk2) Impreza STi WRX the other day, looked well sorted. Came onto a dual carrage way off a roundabout and both gunned it and he by no means left me standing. Kept with him until I bottled it (I know where the cameras are!)

Thats with a measly 190bhp and 300lbft of torque in my Leon. What would he have had? 315bhp assuming it was std (didnt look it) And after all that being silly I still averaged 49mpg on the run, I bet he was under 20mpg!

Mine doesn't sound bad either. If you can hear the engine over the turbo once rolling you are doing well!

As others have said, modern diesels really do shame all but the most highly tuned petrols in a hatchback.

David

A1 - 22/9/09 at 08:04 PM

what car have you got? the mk2 wrxs are about 5. something to 60.
in my experience of imprezas/evos, not much keeps up.

prawnabie - 22/9/09 at 08:11 PM

Id say most the the home built stuff on here keeps up with subarus/evos lol.

My 1700 8v ohv locost will trounce a impreza in standard form.

flak monkey - 22/9/09 at 08:13 PM

Tweaked diesel Leon FR. 190bhp, 300lbft

0-60 is a poor reflection of true performance. Its the 30-50 and 50-70 times that really make a difference on the road. And this is usally where the diesels win out even over performance petrols.

Seriously, you have to experience the torque rush on a sorted diesel to believe it. The only problem is changing gear fast enough.

Like I say he was certainly trying hard, and he didnt get away.

Any diesel with more oomph would have left him (BMW 123 M or something)

MikeRJ - 22/9/09 at 08:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
This is the thing you see, performance wise, once rolling a modern diesel will trounce a petrol which has loads more power. The in gear performance is extraordinary. 0-60 isnt so good though.

The thing is it won't if you drive the petrol properly. Diesel enthusiasts tend to rave about in-gear performance and overtaking ability as though changing gear in a petrol engined car was somehow beyond their abilities. That said, in the hands of the numpties that regularly attempt excruciatingly slow overtakes because the thought of dropping a gear or two has never crossed their minds, a diesel will undoubtedly be quicker.

Turbo diesels feel fast to most people because of the "kick" you get as the turbo spools up. However IME they often aren't as fast as they feel. Likewise powerful, large engined petrol cars often don't feel as quick as they really are, since they have such a linear torque delivery, you get a push that just keeps going rather than a kick which is all over in seconds.

[Edited on 22/9/09 by MikeRJ]

flak monkey - 22/9/09 at 09:01 PM

I can, and do, drive both properly I assure you.

Watching the rate at which the speedo swings around is a good enough indication for me.

phelpsa - 23/9/09 at 02:09 PM

LOL at 190bhp diesel out accelerating a 315bhp Impreza.

Not gonna happen, simple physics

flak monkey - 23/9/09 at 02:28 PM

Dont start the power and torque debate again

If anyone is in doubt you really should try one....

[Edited on 23/9/09 by flak monkey]

phelpsa - 23/9/09 at 05:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Dont start the power and torque debate again

If anyone is in doubt you really should try one....

[Edited on 23/9/09 by flak monkey]

Torque is completely irrelevant... but we wont start that one again

flak monkey - 23/9/09 at 05:38 PM

OK, if you dont believe me I will quote some times. I know you still wont believe it, but you can have a look for yourself if you like. lol

The 30-70 time for a remapped FR TDI with my setup is 5.7 secs through gears.

Scooby WRX STi happens to also be .... 5.7 secs, again thats through gears.

30-50 in 3rd in the leon is 3.1 secs

30-50 in the Scooby is 3.3 secs in second

[Edited on 23/9/09 by flak monkey]

graememk - 24/9/09 at 03:34 PM

oh another cock waving thred on locost builders, (no offence directed at David).

phelpsa - 24/9/09 at 03:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by graememk
oh another cock waving thred on locost builders, (no offence directed at David).

It's all tongue in cheek on here! At least I hope it is...

flak monkey - 24/9/09 at 05:47 PM

quote:
Originally posted by graememk
oh another cock waving thred on locost builders, (no offence directed at David).

Lol I just never give in

Simon - 24/9/09 at 11:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
0-60 is a poor reflection of true performance. Its the 30-50 and 50-70 times that really make a difference on the road. And this is usally where the diesels win out even over performance petrols.

Unfortunately (as I have to stand up for diesel here) I have to agree, and it doesn't even apply to that new a diesel either.

Many years ago I had an 827 Vitesse, and was following a Rover 218 SDi (pre bubble shape). We both floored it at about the same time, and I only got past him once we were doing silly speeds.

Who'd have thought a sporting Rover ( the first production car to lap the IoM TT course at more than 100mph) would struggle to overtake a weasel that prob took 12 secs to get to 60

I'm toying with the idea of building a diesel bike! A diesel with a sequential box. Perfect. 3.5 secs to 60 and 130mpg

ATB

Simon

phelpsa - 25/9/09 at 09:34 AM

I have to agree that real world being able to put your foot down at any rpm and have a decent shove for a few seconds over a small speed range is quite useful.

I drive a Fiat 500 1.4 16V everyday and i often wish we'd bought the diesel. Mated with the 6spd box it means you're changing gear all the time around town to get any sort of power. However get it on the backroads and its just sweet, 4000-7000rpm it sings. Most of these diesels come on boost at 1700rpm and its all over by 3500. Good for the old 30-50 test but no fun when driving 'properly'.

30-50 in second in an impreza is 'foot down, some lag, starts to build boost, comes on full boost at 4000rpm, a very short period of power, oh crap that's 50'. It's caught up again by 70 because its used the power between 5000-7000rpm.

You can see where my passion lies I suppose :p Diesels are good for towing a petrol car to a place where you can use it properly

Simon - 25/9/09 at 08:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa

Most of these diesels come on boost at 1700rpm and its all over by 3500.

It may well be, but bear in mind that the diesel diff ratio will be very low compared to a petrol - which goes some way to making up the difference in engine speed - by using torque.

I have a 2.28 BMW 330d (yes 2.28

) diff to go in toy car which, if the Karen Pender SD1 Vitesse figs are to be believed, means I'll get the better part of 50mpg and silly performance without unnecessary thrashing.

Oh yeah, I test drove an Imprezza turbo wizzbang thingy about 10 years ago and have never been so underwhelmed with performance, let along pee poor trim quality!

ATB

Simon

phelpsa - 26/9/09 at 12:00 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Simon

quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa

Most of these diesels come on boost at 1700rpm and its all over by 3500.

It may well be, but bear in mind that the diesel diff ratio will be very low compared to a petrol - which goes some way to making up the difference in engine speed - by using torque.

I have a 2.28 BMW 330d (yes 2.28) diff to go in toy car which, if the Karen Pender SD1 Vitesse figs are to be believed, means I'll get the better part of 50mpg and silly performance without unnecessary thrashing.

Oh yeah, I test drove an Imprezza turbo wizzbang thingy about 10 years ago and have never been so underwhelmed with performance, let along pee poor trim quality!

ATB

Simon

I know up until a couple of years ago they weren't everything they were cracked up to be, my dads old 2.0l WRX, with 220bhp, couldn't out drag a V6 mondeo (his previous car). But the newer 2.5lt 280bhp STI is a pretty serious piece of kit. The extra capacity means more low down torque so its driveable off boost and the better smaller turbo means less lag and better response.

My mum didnt like the old impreza as it was pretty difficult to drive and had to be kept 'on boost' but the STi has now been adopted as hers

Admittedly it's still a japanese mid range saloon and despite the leather, satvnav and fancy stereo it does feel a bit 'tinny', but �24k for a car than can carry 4 comfortably, do the shopping run and perform admirably at the nurburgring, you can't really complain.

Off course im not biased at all in this debate

Simon - 26/9/09 at 08:05 PM

I'd rather have the Fiat 500 - seriously like them. If I have t buy wifey a new car, that's what she's having.

If you want proper performance, buy a bike

even a diesel

ATB

Simon