Schrodinger
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| posted on 4/2/08 at 09:11 PM |
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This any use
http://www.vectorengineer.com/
and Google does
http://www.sketchup.com/
Keith
Aviemore
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Doug68
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| posted on 5/2/08 at 02:11 AM |
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AutoCad IMHO is fairly crap for this sort of task.
Do what a lot of other people have done and download a dodgy copy of SolidWorks, which comes complete with FEA and CFD.
Doug. 1TG
Sports Car Builders WA
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Dom9
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| posted on 5/2/08 at 09:04 AM |
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Thanks for the replies chaps, will look at downloading something this weekend... I'm not too familiar with these bit torrent sites etc although
I guess I should learn now that I have an iPod Touch and spent about £50 on software and films already!
The chaps who built that 962 chassis have been in touch... They still have that project and another chassis apparently. I will try and find out why it
has been still-born though.
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crafty
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| posted on 5/2/08 at 10:24 AM |
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I agree on the comments re: ACAD. Luckily I live in Hong Kong, the land of the pirated software. I got hold of a copy of SW, one of ProE and one of
3Dmax.... USD5 bucks a pop.
After playing with them I am so impressed with SW that I am thinking of changing our company software to SW. We currently use ACAD (legally) for
construction work, but the SW features are awesome, especially for 3D.
There's a few good forums and a few good books with tutorials. I bought this one ... seems like a good one
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1428353011
Ultima GTR - 600hp Magnacharged LS2
MNR Vortx - Supercharged R1
Porsche 356 - midmounted Audi V8
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Dom9
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| posted on 5/2/08 at 12:04 PM |
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Cheers Crafty,
I am familiar with SW but have never used it myself... think I will try and use one of those 'free' pieces of software over the weekend to
do some sketches.
then, once I am happy with the design, I will see about re-drawing it (or importing it) into one of the more mainstream packages!
I wouldn't mind a trip to HK with Lou, so i might see about doing that later in the year 
In fact, using the benefit of the 'work' IT connection and downloading both the 'free' CAD software tool now... So I will have
a go with both and let you know how it comes out!
*edit* Thanks to Schrodinger for the links!
[Edited on 5/2/08 by Dom9]
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Dom9
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| posted on 5/2/08 at 01:58 PM |
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Well chaps - I have had a look at the Vector Engineering 'free' software and it doesn't look that useful without the Pro-Tools,
which you need to pay for. Without looking at the site, I think they are only $20, so I might take a look at doing that.
Left the Google SketchUp 6 downloading over lunch only to find that it doesn't appear to have saved it anywhere on my system, so I am giving it
another go now and will report back when I have had a play!
Lou told me to bring home what I have sketched for the Nissan chassis for her to have a look at as she is bored at work, but I think I may be better
off doing it myself during the 'conceptual' phase - Need to keep a happy home and we pretty much work together as it is!
I have spoken with Kevin from Gunnar Racing, who produced the steel spaceframe 962 chassis I posted above. He is willing to sell his spare one, but it
will cost a similar order to the body and that is without any suspension parts and it would require a fair bit of modification to use my non-race
derived, non-load bearing engine and transmission etc...
It could be good value for someone, but I know I have the skill set to be able to design my own, so I might as well give it a go. I might need to find
a source for all the machining though...
In fact, isn't there some web-base docmpany who have a bit of CAD software on their page and you can design what you want and then it
automatically quotes you how much it will be?! I wonder what a whole chassis would cost using that method? I am not sure I have the time, space or
skills necessary to design and build teh whole lot!
*edit* Found it here:
e Machine Shop
And it has software - May be useful for some people here?
AndyGTT - Did you do all your own fabrication?
Still no further news on bodies... The 3 or 4 leads I had have appeared to dry up a bit, but I will give them another week or so, in case they are
sourcing parts and getting it all priced up.
[Edited on 5/2/08 by Dom9]
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Rogue Se7ens
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| posted on 5/2/08 at 03:25 PM |
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Dom, if you would like to send me a copy of your sketches and basic dimensions, I could at least get you started with a Solidworks model. I've
been following the thread and this may even help me think out a midi project I've had in mind.
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Dom9
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| posted on 5/2/08 at 03:48 PM |
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Thanks for the offer Rogue!
Current sketches are far too 'sketchy' to send to anyone at the moment,but I will see what I can do in this software this weekend and then
send you over what I have done!
I would appreciate that and I am guessing that I could probably export it from one of these pieces of software to something SW friendly...!? I will
find out I'm sure.
I won't do anything 'firm' for the chassis yet though, really just use a 'generic' design until I can find a body... I
don;t want to waste hours of my time and everyone elses doing a super-detailed chassis model if it then needs loads of alterations to fit the body!
If w ecan get something posted up here in the next couple fo weeks - You can all comment on the design and let me know what you think!
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Rogue Se7ens
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| posted on 5/2/08 at 04:12 PM |
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No problem Dom, it sounds like a fun project. If you are working in a 3d program, check if it can export .iges, for 2d dxf or dwg will work.
To be honest though I enjoy the frame design process, I really specialize more in the body design so would definitely be willing to give you a hand in
that.
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Doug68
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| posted on 6/2/08 at 12:38 AM |
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I tried the eMachineShop 2D software & it drove me nutty. Better I think to draft somewhere else and then paste into it I think, but I expect
thats just me.
Solid Edge do a free 2D CAD package. In 2D CAD terms its a pro level package and the drawings produced by it can be used as the basis for 3D design
in SolidEdge
Linky . These drawings cant be used in
SolidWorks I believe.
Because its relationship based its also good for creating parametric designs which is what you need for doing suspension for example.
Doug. 1TG
Sports Car Builders WA
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Puk
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| posted on 6/2/08 at 05:58 AM |
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I tried eMAchine shop, it is a web front end for a bunch of independent machine shops. I found that for my part (a 2D dural bracket for mounting new
Brembo brake calipers onto an old Ducati) I could import it from AutoCAD. But the prices were not competitive - it might have been better if I were
ordering 15 off though.
Doug - I wasn't sure if that was a typo in your message - is SolidEdge compatible with SolidWorks?
Dom if you pursue the bonded composite chassis route then I have been searching out suitable adhesives (I'm going that route for a 7 chassis).
There are several structural adhesives that cure at room temperature and which do not require the joint surfaces to be etched before application.
Ciba sell something under the Araldite brand, which is basically a development of the adhesive used on the Elise. Lord Adhesives offer something with
similar properties but which includes microscopic glass beads in the mix to ensure that the minimum bond thickness is developed (joints will fail if
the adhesive is squeezed from the joint creating a bond thickness is too low).
Dom how were the joints formed on your student racer, and how tough were they in practice?
Cheers,
Puk
[Edited on 6/2/08 by Puk]
Before you judge a guy, walk a mile in his shoes. Then when you judge him, you're a mile a way and you've nicked his shoes.
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Rogue Se7ens
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| posted on 6/2/08 at 06:08 AM |
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Dom, I don't remember reading about these guys yet, http://www.diasio.com/ but that have an interesting product, a little out of proportion, but
some decent pics of frames and components. Another resource with some specs is http://www.mulsannescorner.com/
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Doug68
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| posted on 6/2/08 at 07:20 AM |
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As far as I'm aware the 2D drafting environment from SolidEdge is not compatible with SolidWorks in anyway.
The 2D drafting of SolidEdge however is used in 3D SolidEdge, which is what I've personally used to do my car.
These 2 products are from competing organizations Siemens and Dassault so its not unexpected.
BTW all of the above are crap for doing body design for which you should use RhinoCAD, Lightwave(?) or if you want to be a pro Alias Studio (Studio
Tools) there's a free full feature personal learning edition of this one BTW, but its really, really I mean really hard to learn.
Doug. 1TG
Sports Car Builders WA
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Puk
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| posted on 6/2/08 at 08:46 AM |
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Thanks for clarifying that Doug, I think that I'll persevere with converting my ACAD habits into SolidWorks. Despite your advice regarding Rhino
CAD I'm hoping to do the body design in SW too - I just don't fancy having to install and learn a third CAD package. I'm taking
heart from Dennis on http://www.dpcars.net/ who designed his car body using SW so it must be doable with effort.
Cheers,
Puk
Before you judge a guy, walk a mile in his shoes. Then when you judge him, you're a mile a way and you've nicked his shoes.
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Dom9
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| posted on 6/2/08 at 09:26 AM |
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Jeez - My spelling in that last post was terrible, I must learn to take more care when typing!
Thanks Rogue - I can see me bombarding you with loads of drawings and sketches, you have no idea what you have done, LOL! However, I really ought to
get a handle of at least one piece of software so I can sort the detail myself!
I remember looking at the Diasio website years and years ago - Those cars look quite call but badly out of proportion! However, the windscreen looks
genuine and may provide an alternative to some of the others we have been looking at.
Mulsannes Corner is an excellent website - Possibly my favourite of all the sites I frequent! I did email Mike a couple fo weeks back but I
haven't heard anything back from him, but I am sure he is a busy man.
Puk - As for bonded monocoques... I have had this idea in my head for years, but I am not sure I will ever go that route to be honest! I like the idea
as a rev.2 or 2nd phase car, to try something different but I think I am safer in the first instance going with the spaceframe.
The FSAE car was bonded along the folds and just had a single 'join' along the top of the chassis, like forming a tube out of a sheet. To
be honest, that was skinned and rivetted, so who knows what strength the adhesive gave, in a way, I doubt it needed any strength being that it was a
single join.
Derek Smith, who I have discussed on here before as a possible bodywork supplier, has been in touch. Apparently he designed and built the Gunnar
Racing steel spaceframe posted above and is willing to sell the drawings, which is good. I won't go into more details or prices here as I
don't want to post anything in the public domain he is not comfortable with.
If I used the chassis drawings as a base, drew them up in CAD and altered the suspension pick up points and added a rear subframe for the engine/
transX and maybe swapped to round tube, I think I could have something together pretty sharp-ish! Which would be good as it would speed the process up
and be guaranteed to fit the 962 bodywork he and Dave supply... I will investigate further.
Thanks for the CAD advice Doug!
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Delinquent
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| posted on 6/2/08 at 09:32 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Puk
Thanks for clarifying that Doug, I think that I'll persevere with converting my ACAD habits into SolidWorks. Despite your advice regarding Rhino
CAD I'm hoping to do the body design in SW too - I just don't fancy having to install and learn a third CAD package. I'm taking
heart from Dennis on http://www.dpcars.net/ who designed his car body using SW so it must be doable with effort.
Cheers,
Puk
Although Doug is correct, Rhino would appear to be a far better application for bodywork, it is by no means impossible in SW - all of mine was!
Personally didn't get on that well with Rhino when I tried it, but that's just me. SW is not what you would call intuitive for bodywork
but if you're already reasonably well developed in it's workings you should have few troubles.
[Edited on 6/2/08 by Delinquent]
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Benonymous
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| posted on 7/2/08 at 08:02 AM |
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Rhino
I agree. Rhino is a big app. Unless you have lots of spare time to teach yourself how to use it I'd say its too complex for just one job. 962
bodywork would be doable in SW.
I'm by no means an expert but the surface modeling features are sufficiently developed to do the job.
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Delinquent
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| posted on 7/2/08 at 10:09 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Benonymous
I agree. Rhino is a big app. Unless you have lots of spare time to teach yourself how to use it I'd say its too complex for just one job. 962
bodywork would be doable in SW.
I'm by no means an expert but the surface modeling features are sufficiently developed to do the job.
Looking at the 962 I'd say it should be downright easy in SW! It's almost as though the bodywork was created with that in mind
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Dom9
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 posted on 14/2/08 at 12:32 PM |
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Sorry guys - Work is a nightmare at the moment so I ahve made no progress whatsoever!
Haven't really heard anymore about body availability so everything is on hold for now... I may be going to look at some Porsche 996's at
the weekend, so some budget may well disappear there now!
Why did work have to get so busy?! Don't worry, this project will chug along in the background!
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Dom9
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| posted on 19/2/08 at 01:05 PM |
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Possible progress at last!
No sooner do I find a Porsche 996 in the spec I want, locally than I get an email from Don Miles (check my very 1st post).
Just in the nick of time, as they say! I have had a bit of a difficult time at home recently and had to re-assess whether a big project like this was
something that I should be throwing time and money at, but things look to be resolving themselves now...
I just need to look at my finances and see if I can afford to get this project on the move and the Porsche....
Anyway... If Don has the same stuff that I saw originally (I am yet to email him back, but will do now) it might make life a lot easier.
Since the central tub was GRP, it may only require front and rear frames to be constructed (and roll cage I guess), which may reduce costs and speed
up construction a fair whack. The only problem is: Is the GRP monocoque strong enough as I doubt anyone will know how it was constructed... It would
at least provide accurate dimensions for the chassis though if I think it is unsuitable!
Hope everything is going well for you guys! I will keep you updated!
Dom
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Dom9
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| posted on 25/2/08 at 09:52 PM |
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Still haven't heard back from Don...
So I now own a black Porsche 996...
Will still progress this in the background!
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Dom9
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| posted on 7/3/08 at 11:08 AM |
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Look what I found
Well gents, today is my birthday so I am picking up my Porsche this afternoon, which is exciting! However, I have kept this project on the back burner
and have been re-reading a lot of my Group C books and the Jag Group C car technical stuff...
I dug these photos out from when I went to look at the GRP chassis and body parts all those years ago...
They were scanned in black and white so the detail isn't great but you get the general idea! The chassis is the big, white thing with the
windscreen in case anyone can't see it (also, look at the Group C Jag V12 cylinder heads in the foreground!)...
I emailed Don and he has not replied but I asked him whether he thinks the GRP chassis could actually be load bearing and take suspension etc at the
front and a rear spaceframe for the engine and rear suspension etc... I am not familiar with GRP monocoques etc so I am not sure how to tell how stiff
it is or whether it would crack at the first sign of acceleration!
What do you gusy think, looking at it? Difficult to make any judgements just from these photos but he has tonnes and tonnes of bodywork! Or maybe a
lot of it has gone now - It has been years after all!!!
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autohausdolby
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| posted on 12/4/08 at 06:32 PM |
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Cool photos 
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Dom9
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| posted on 14/4/08 at 08:02 AM |
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Cheers Mate, Long time no speak!
Sorry - I haven't been very active on here recently!
I spoke with Don and sadly he sold that chassis some time ago. He still has the tooling to make new ones, but I think this is going to be
expensive.
If truth be told, all the trails have gone quiet on bodywork etc so I have kind of put this on the backburner whilst I enjoy the 911 and knuckle down
to some projects at work.
We have also been looking at buying another house, so I didn't want to tie-up any more money! We should knwo where we are at with all that soon
and I can get onto this again!!!
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autohausdolby
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| posted on 14/4/08 at 06:49 PM |
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I'm in a similar position as my 914 is absorbing money like a sponge. £28 for a bolt and washer from the local Porsche dealer 
And that's with trade discount! I can't wait until I get to the actual expensive part of the restoration. Twin plug heads are not cheap
I'm erring on the side of doing a full scratch build now as well - my better half caught me measuring up the living room the other day to see if
I could build the buck in there instead of at work
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