Dangle_kt
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 12:58 PM |
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Clutch won't disengage - Fireblade
Hi guys,
I have new clutch plates and barnett springs fitted to my engine, at the same time as a few other things were done to it.
its all installed now, and I have found that no matter how I adjust the clutch, it won;t disengage.
I'll explain what I have done to identify this.
Rear wheels off the ground, centre tunnel open, I can turn the prop by hand. Put it in anygear and the prop won;t turn - as you;d expect. fully
depress clutch, it still wont turn.
So i thought the calbe might need adjusting, so I have put it to max, giving only a few mm between its "at rest position" and the clutch
arm on the engine being unable to move more (at full disengagment) unfortunatly even with this adjustment and the clutch pushed as far down as it will
go (including a bit of cable stretch because I was pressing it a bit hard in frustration!) the prop still doesn;t turn, even with two hands on it.
SOOOO next I removed the cable from the engine end and used a wrench to move the clutch arm, I can confirm that the cable and the adjustment isn;t the
problem, as the wrench was only able to move it as far as the cable could before the arm won;t move any more.
Next I put the car in gear, and pushed the starter button, as you can imagine the car moves forward. reconnect clutch, adjust all the way back to
where it was during the last test and then push starter button motor... car does not move forward as violently, but it still moves.
So, I think I am right in thinking that
1) the gearbox is not shagged (as it can rotate freely in neutral, and the car moves forward on the starter in any gear)
2) the engine is not seized as it will start
3) the cable is correctly adjusted (if anything its adjusted far too far, but it proves the point that the cable is fine)
This leaves me with the idea that the only thing left is the clutch being a bit cock eyed behind the engine casing.
I really dont want to have to loose £30 woth of engine oil, but I don't have a choice, as I think I have to take the engine casing off to see
whats going on under the skin.
Any ideas what I should look for, what the possible problem could be, how to fix it and if it easy to do in-situ, as I didn;t fit the engine and dont
have a crane to remove it.
SVA is on Friday, and I'm getting a bit tense over various issues, this is the last thing I need. 
any advise welcome (unless its you CEC boys with a glib comment - really, not in the mood fellas  )
[Edited on 19/4/09 by Dangle_kt]
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gingerprince
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 01:10 PM |
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If it's nice new oil, there's nothing wrong wih dropping it and retaining it to reuse - though I'd refill via a straining funnel to
be cautious.
Then take the clutch cover off. My guess would be that either the clutch lever isn't properly engaging with the lifter pin, or that
there's too many or the wrong sort of plates in there.
Does your clutch pedal have any feel to it, or is it very loose? Could you move the lever with your wrench easily? If it's was loose, then
I'd suspect the first issue.
Otherwise, check the platest that were fitted. Depending on whether it's an early or a late blade, some have different thickness plates I
think?
If you go to this link, click the year of
your bike, then CBR900RR, then clutch, and you'll see an exploded diagram of your clutch together with part numbers. Make sure the number and
type of plates etc matches.
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andrew.carwithen
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 01:17 PM |
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I'd be inclined to agree with gingerprince in that the machined slot in the clutch arm actuating shaft hasn't engaged with the clutch
push-rod (item 13 in exploded diagram of above link named clutch lifter pin) when the clutch cover was refitted.
You should only lose a little oil should you remove the cover without draining it (most of it will stay in the sump.)
[Edited on 19/4/09 by andrew.carwithen]
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 03:02 PM |
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The symptom is called "Clutch Drag" in motorcycle terms.
I had this once and after hours of fkin around, id discovered that i had put the plates back in an incorrect order so two friction plates were next to
eachother.
The plates need to be alternated. I dont recall the blade, but if its a wet clutch, make sure you soak the plates before installing them.
Other than that, id suggest a different set of plates. Are they OEM plates or pattern? Maybe youve been sold the wrong ones?
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 03:18 PM |
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Hi guys, thanks for the replies.
very helpful!
I'll open up the engine later tonight when I can have a good run at it. I'll take lots of photos and notes of the order.
Just to clarify, the clutch arm is very stiff, I had to use a wrench or the pedal to move it - as you would expect froma properly functioning clutch,
thats why I assumed all was good and didn't check function! DOH!
It is a wet clutch, so I will resoak the plates in the oil that escapes from the clutch cover!, the filter it and pour it back through the filler hole
once reinstalled.
I think the plates are OEM, but were brand new and the engine hasn;t moved an inch for the last year.
Does anyone know the number of plates that I should have in an 893cc install?
From the fiche images (thanks for that link BTW) it looks like there is a back fibre which is meant ot be thicker, then steel, then standard fibre,
then steel etc. all topped off with a thick top fibre. the image seems to skip some fibres and steels for ease of reading though, so a difinative
number would be very helpful.
I'm waiting for my haynes to arrive in the post, anyone have a link so I can have a squiz before it comes next week?
Thanks again folks - invaulable resource.
Edit to say, here is a copy of the haynes manual in .pdf for download
http://pdftown.com/Honda-CBR900RR-Service-Manual.html
I have bought the original, it just hasn;t come yet.
[Edited on 19/4/09 by Dangle_kt]
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 04:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andrew.carwithen
You should only lose a little oil should you remove the cover without draining it (most of it will stay in the sump.)
[Edited on 19/4/09 by andrew.carwithen]
Hi,
Car is level, I have undone the clutch cover and have so far (its still dribbling) got 2 litres of oil!!
I'm guessing that is way out. I remeber changing the lcutch on an old cbr (not a blade) and hardly any came out.
I have read that too much oil can make the clutch not operate correctly - what are peoples thoughts?
[Edited on 19/4/09 by Dangle_kt]
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roadrunner
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 06:51 PM |
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Does the clutch just free the engine from the gearbox, I:E the prop will be in the gear selected but with the clutch depressed you are just freeing
the engine.
Just a thought.
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mad-butcher
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 06:59 PM |
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what year is the blade engine,as there are 3 different length of clutch spring, put the longer ones in and the clutch will not dis-engage
tony
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slimtater
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 07:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dangle_kt
Does anyone know the number of plates that I should have in an 893cc install?
[Edited on 19/4/09 by Dangle_kt]
If it helps, I have just bought a clutch kit from PDQ for an 893 'blade (1994 RRR) and it has 9 friction plates (8 + 1 different - inner one?)
and 8 steels.
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19919222
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 08:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mad-butcher
what year is the blade engine,as there are 3 different length of clutch spring, put the longer ones in and the clutch will not dis-engage
tony
Hi,
Its a 1994 893cc blade engine.
when i get a few minutes I'll pull the cover off (it was a bit stuck on before!) but at the moment I have a wife who has ran out of patience.
Which is a bugger becuase I have only got 1 thing done off my "list" today, as all the clutch hassle wasn;t known about...ARG!
Thanks for all the advice guys.
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 08:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by slimtater
quote:
Originally posted by Dangle_kt
Does anyone know the number of plates that I should have in an 893cc install?
[Edited on 19/4/09 by Dangle_kt]
If it helps, I have just bought a clutch kit from PDQ for an 893 'blade (1994 RRR) and it has 9 friction plates (8 + 1 different - inner one?)
and 8 steels.
It does help - thanks
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 19/4/09 at 11:00 PM |
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ok, bit of an update. clutch is apart. Everything looked in order.
clutch plates are in correct order, as are steels, judder spring and seat were correct.
Next I re-read all your advice and picked up on mad butchers comment about long clutch springs.
I remembered I had the old springs in a box (my hoarding instincts at full alert!), dug them out to find the barnet springs were 47mm long, where as
the standard springs were more like 44 or 45mm long. also the spring wire gauge is thicker on the barnet springs.
It seems sensible to conclude that with greater length and thicker wire the springs, at full compression do not allow the plates apart enough to spin
freely.
I will rebuild tomorrow and report back.
the Mrs is popping out, so if I get chance I might rebuild and go for a sneeky drive...muhahaha! just for research 
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gingerprince
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| posted on 20/4/09 at 07:00 AM |
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Just for info, my 'blade has the uprated Barnett Blackbird springs (which are what are generally recommended for BEC's). They were a
little longer than the 'blade springs I pulled out (don't have a measurement though) and they work fine. Yours don't sound like
they're a lot longer, so may not be the problem?
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andrew.carwithen
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| posted on 20/4/09 at 08:00 AM |
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Yup. Same here. Barnett Blackbird springs in my Blade with no probs. (though I didn't fit 'em - came as part of the engine package when I
bought it off Andy Bates at AB Performance)
Could be worth giving him a call. He'll probably have both the original and Barnett springs to hand and be able to confirm yours are ok.
Just had a thought. Have you said previously that the engine has sat idle for 12 months or more - or was the clutch upgrade done recently? Could be
that the plates have just stuck together if its been left standing. You may find that having removed and refitted the plates (and making sure that the
actuating shaft engages with the lifter pin when refitting the cover) that all is well.
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mad-butcher
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| posted on 20/4/09 at 10:13 AM |
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1993-1995 UK N to S free length 45.5mm
1996- 199seven UK T and V free length 50.2mm
1998-1999 UK W and X free length 48.8
tony
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 20/4/09 at 11:10 AM |
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ITS FOOOOOOKIN FIXED!
WOOHOO!
Big thanks to all who helped, just got to get the bite point spot on, but its done.
To say I'm happy is an understatement.
Below is a picture of me, in the garage, shortly after I fixed it
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mr henderson
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| posted on 20/4/09 at 12:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dangle_kt
ITS FOOOOOOKIN FIXED!
So what was wrong then?
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 20/4/09 at 12:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
quote:
Originally posted by Dangle_kt
ITS FOOOOOOKIN FIXED!
So what was wrong then?
I'm not entirly sure, as taking the clutch apart to replace the springs will have cured all three of the possible problems.
It was either, the springs were too long (and looking at madbutchers specs posted above that seems the most likely), i replaced the barnett springs
with standard oem ones (I will buy new barnetts from AB once the SVA is out of the way!)
oil stiction or whatever its called, basically a wet clutch that hasn;t been used for ages binds - so I took all the fibres from the steels, and wiped
the steels down before reasembely
clutch pickup not engaged correctly, I dont think it was this, as the clutch arm movement hasn't changed, and neither has the effort it takes to
move. but it could have been.
Whatever it was, its now sorted.
What was funny is that about 10 minutes after I had finished celebrating there is a knock at the door, its the postie with my haynes manual...
timing...
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