ChrisJ15
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posted on 22/4/17 at 11:48 AM |
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Titan Roller Barrel TB Idle
Firstly, apologies, I know this has been covered a few times before but I have some questions...
I have a 2.0 Duratec with Titan Roller Barrel TBs. They came new from Northampton Motorsport along with an Omex 600 which they kindly put a map on
from a similar setup.
Quick question is what is the best (lowest) idle I should expect with this setup? The very best I can get when hot is around 1000-1100 but quite
erratic.
The history...
It started first time and has always run super sweet when its warming up and even runs nicely when it moves off the fast idle which runs to 60DegC.
However when it warms up above 85-90 it all goes wrong. The idle is all over the place.
Ive checked the balance with a synchronometer (around 4ish Kg/Hr), ive done the static setup as per Caterham instructions (6mm open on front of
barrel) and followed the Omex setup for scatter idle - take off idle, set manually to 150rpm above target then switch idel back on.
As it came the idle was anywhere from 1000 to 1200+ and occasionally would 'run away' to over 1600.
The Idle Scatter Spark Table had no correction for +rpm so i copied the-rpm figures but negated them and they run upto -5.89. This did seem to help
and by setting the target rpm way down to 800 I can get it to idle at 1000-1100.
I do fully intend to take it to Northampton Motorsport to get it properly setup but 1) Wanted to sort anything first if there's a problem
elsewhere and 2) Wanted to get it MOTed locally to see if I get lucky with emmission first, that way I can IVA and then drive to NMS.
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mackei23b
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posted on 22/4/17 at 04:33 PM |
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Hi There
Have a look at the sensors and the all variables, when it's warm what is the air temp sensor reading. The air temp will provide fuel correction
and could cause the issues you are describing...also check the TPS is reading correctly....
That is where I would start.
Cheers
Ian
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ChrisJ15
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posted on 22/4/17 at 04:44 PM |
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Thanks Ian TPS is all OK but havent air temp beyond start up.
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mackei23b
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posted on 22/4/17 at 05:48 PM |
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I meant to also ask what the AFR is doing as this is another clue.
Cheers
Ian
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ChrisJ15
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posted on 23/4/17 at 04:23 PM |
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Is that in the fuel map?
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rusty nuts
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posted on 23/4/17 at 05:34 PM |
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Check for air leaks .
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ChrisJ15
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posted on 7/5/17 at 01:35 PM |
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Pretty sure its not an air leak, at least between the TBs and the head. I put a piece of wood across the TBs and it immediatley stopped the engine.
All very frustrating as its the very last thing I need to do before IVA.
One thing I did notice a couple of times was the fuel tank made that noise you hear when theres pressure or a vacuum in a tank. I double checked the
breather valve to make sure its round the right way.
Also ran with the cap off and it still wasnt idling well so not sure its a factor.
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r1_pete
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posted on 7/5/17 at 03:46 PM |
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Flak Monkey had the same issue a few years ago, I'm sure he gave up and went back to conventional bodies:
https://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=131856&page=1
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ChrisJ15
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posted on 7/5/17 at 04:33 PM |
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Unfortunatley, because the Duratec was mounted slightly canted over there's no room for other TBs so im stuck with the Titan ones.
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peter030371
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posted on 8/5/17 at 10:17 AM |
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I have the same TB but only managed my first start this weekend so not tried getting up to hot idle yet!
I have stood next to a many Caterham Duratecs using these TB and they idle fine so it Has to be possible. I also have a friend that had some on
a Duratec powered Elise and he eventually got them to work with an Emerald ECU so that would also indicate its possible.
Can you tell me when you set it up what are your Raw maximum and minimum figures for the TPS in the ECU?
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rusty nuts
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posted on 8/5/17 at 11:41 AM |
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Check for air leaks using WD40 then check the balance of the TBs and also for slack in the throttle cable/linkage Over advanced ignition timing at
idle will cause a fast idle speed
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ChrisJ15
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posted on 9/5/17 at 03:55 PM |
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Raw Max and Min on the TPS are 20 and 223.
Did just notice that the throttle setting doesnt always return to 0 and sometimes is around 0.12%. I wonder if thats a factor?
Id did try squirting wd40 around the TB barrells but didnt notice any changes.
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peter030371
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posted on 9/5/17 at 06:27 PM |
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisJ15
Raw Max and Min on the TPS are 20 and 223.
What TPS have you got? My ford one has a very short range, min 20 to max 157 which must limit the mapping options a little!
Not sure it should ever return to 0% but I am no expert just from what I have read.
Really it needs a rolling road session to sort it out, not sure how far NMS are from you but I would not want to drive it to them first time. Trailer
it to them until you know the map is safe. They can also make sure its ready for the IVA at the same time
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ChrisJ15
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posted on 9/5/17 at 07:11 PM |
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Cant remember TPS make, came from Northampton Motorport with Titan TBs.
Plan is to trailer it to NMS now.
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peter030371
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posted on 10/5/17 at 07:34 AM |
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisJ15
Cant remember TPS make, came from Northampton Motorport with Titan TBs.
Plan is to trailer it to NMS now.
Searched on here and you have previously said its a 'RP5110-100 from Active Sensors' so I will try and get one of them to increase my TPS
range
When you get NMS to set it up I would love to hear how you get on and what it ends up like?
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peter030371
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posted on 10/5/17 at 09:04 AM |
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Gulp, just been quoted £157 (inc VAT and delivery) for 1 TPS the same as yours!
Need to get an answer from Omex if having a narrow TPS range is going to really make any difference before I swap this over
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ChrisJ15
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posted on 10/5/17 at 08:02 PM |
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quote: Originally posted by peter030371
quote: Originally posted by ChrisJ15
Cant remember TPS make, came from Northampton Motorport with Titan TBs.
Plan is to trailer it to NMS now.
Searched on here and you have previously said its a 'RP5110-100 from Active Sensors' so I will try and get one of them to increase my TPS
range
When you get NMS to set it up I would love to hear how you get on and what it ends up like?
Thats a combination of a 6 year build and a failing memory!
I'll certainly put an update on here as to how it goes at NMS.
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ChrisJ15
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posted on 4/7/17 at 08:31 AM |
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Just thought I'd give an update for this thread in case others have same issues.
Went to Northampton Motorsport yesterday for rolling road session to setup ECU and check emissions and all is sorted and OK. Car idles steadily at
1,000rpm and emissions fine.
Havent done this before so I had no idea what to expect. All in all a very pleasurable experience. I would thoroughly recommend NMS. They are all very
helpful and knowledgeable and charge a fair price too.
Very happy with outcome too as im getting 196 bhp from my Duratec with a cat so couldn't be better really!
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peter030371
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posted on 4/7/17 at 08:46 AM |
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My similar spec build (no cat though) is booked in for a mapping session at ATSpeed next week, be interesting to see what they come up with.
They didn't like the fact I have roller barrel throttle bodies and did say there previous experience (from one car) is that they set the idle
and then a few days later it is out again. They don't know why though. Mine currently idles at circa 1000 rpm and it seems fine to me so we will
see after its fully setup
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jeffw
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posted on 4/7/17 at 10:24 AM |
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Remember to give as much banter as you get when you visit the boys at Atspeed
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peter030371
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posted on 4/7/17 at 11:32 AM |
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quote: Originally posted by jeffw
Remember to give as much banter as you get when you visit the boys at Atspeed
Will it be a good or bad thing to mention your name Jeff
It will be my first time towing a car on my trailer....better hope my service/ refurb of it is finished by then!
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jeffw
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posted on 4/7/17 at 01:48 PM |
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What can go wrong, you might want to leave mentioning my name to Colin till you arrive lol...
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pjay
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posted on 13/10/17 at 06:49 PM |
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Hi ChrisJ15/peter030371,
I'm trying to get a decent idle with these TBs on standard 2.0L Duratec and wondered whether you know what Idle Timing Advance was used by
Northamption Motorsport and ATSpeed?
This is on my assumption that the key is Timing Advance (or in reality Timing Retard) - any info would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Pete
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peter030371
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posted on 13/10/17 at 07:26 PM |
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quote: Originally posted by pjay
Hi ChrisJ15/peter030371,
I'm trying to get a decent idle with these TBs on standard 2.0L Duratec and wondered whether you know what Idle Timing Advance was used by
Northamption Motorsport and ATSpeed?
This is on my assumption that the key is Timing Advance (or in reality Timing Retard) - any info would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Pete
I will dig the map out at the weekend and have a look.
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pjay
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posted on 14/10/17 at 12:23 PM |
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Thanks, that would be great. Are you running Alpha-N or Speed Density based map?
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