onenastyviper
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| posted on 21/6/14 at 08:42 AM |
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Bike Engine Size Help - narrowest/most powerful type to look for
Hi Guys, I would like to request some help with finding suitable bike engines - I am not familiar with the different models available and I
don't know any bikers.
What are the narrowest (vtwin, V4, triple or even i4) bike engines that would be good enough to have some fun in a sub4000-500kg?
I don't want lots of power at this stage, perhaps something around 100+BHP.
Also, the engine cannot be wider than 400-450mm - this is the minimum width on my chassis and I would like to keep it original so no chopping/welding
of the original chassis - I intend to make an entire new rear end from tubular steel which attaches to the existing pickup points.
My chassis is similar to this -> 
What bikes should I be looking out for?
Thanks.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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fesycresy
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| posted on 21/6/14 at 08:48 AM |
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Have a look at an Aprillia RSV or a Suzuki TL1000.
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The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.
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matt5964
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| posted on 21/6/14 at 08:50 AM |
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not sure if anyone has used one but the Aprilia RSV4 engine is very small and powerful circa 180+ in the bikes.
or the older v twin from Aprilia as its a 60deg twin unlike the Ducati which is 90deg twin.
don't know about the Suzuki 1000 twin but might be worth a look.
the twins will have less bhp but good lowdown torque. the v4 has the best of both worlds, Honda do a v4 but its a 1200 so my be a bit to big, but its
like a turbine as you wined it on.
also look into the Triumph they do a 1050 triple that may be interesting.
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 21/6/14 at 09:20 AM |
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Thanks, (as daft as it sounds) I've just found MCN's website and was having a look through and some of the specifications.
I never realised that there were *so* many different bike models 
What sort of minimum torque figure would you recommend?
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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Minicooper
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| posted on 21/6/14 at 10:33 AM |
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I like the rsv Mille engine, they are cheap and dry sumped as standard very useful for a car, 128 stock with about 115 at wheels
I found a couple of pictures with dimensions on
 
Description
 
Description
Cheers
David
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 21/6/14 at 02:19 PM |
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Don't forget the exhausts. V-twin has them coming out both sides, whereas inline only one side.
Obvious I know, but its all about the complete packaging challenge.
You should get below 500kg very easily, and with some effort below 400, should go nicely.
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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twybrow
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| posted on 21/6/14 at 10:00 PM |
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Go for a Triumph Triple (Daytona, T595 or 1050). They are compact and give 130-160bhp. Lovely sound and nice and torquey. Easy to remap too.
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 22/6/14 at 07:57 AM |
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Thanks guys - The RSV Mille Engine sounds interesting (including sound-wise): thanks for the dimensions 
as does the triple: best of british 
Does anyone have any outline dimensions for other?
Also, are there such things a bike breaker yards where you can wander around (North West Area ideally)?
This sounds fun...... 
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 22/6/14 at 09:00 AM |
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I'm rather fond of the the old TL1000 engine, having put one in the Westfield a while ago.
Cheap, cheerful, but now acquiring a 'classic' status which might detract from affordability at some point. The ngine itself is difficult
to fault, very solid. Rods have roller bearings, etc., etc. The clutch isn't the strongest, but then it's a matter of slippage, not
breakage, so not severe.
Only 'problem?' I had was the sump, it's integral to the crankcase. It took a lot of welding work to get what I wanted to do with
it, but if an inch or two in engine height isn't an issue to you, the stock setup is pretty flat and car-friendly as is.
I guess the ultimate alternative (more popular) to the bike engine idea would be a pinto, a short prop and a sierra differential.
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 22/6/14 at 03:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
I'm rather fond of the the old TL1000 engine, having put one in the Westfield a while ago.
Cheap, cheerful, but now acquiring a 'classic' status which might detract from affordability at some point. The ngine itself is difficult
to fault, very solid. Rods have roller bearings, etc., etc. The clutch isn't the strongest, but then it's a matter of slippage, not
breakage, so not severe.
Only 'problem?' I had was the sump, it's integral to the crankcase. It took a lot of welding work to get what I wanted to do with
it, but if an inch or two in engine height isn't an issue to you, the stock setup is pretty flat and car-friendly as is.
I guess the ultimate alternative (more popular) to the bike engine idea would be a pinto, a short prop and a sierra differential.
A very short prop-shaft 
Do you have any pictures of the TL1000 engine sump issue?
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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matt5964
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| posted on 22/6/14 at 04:05 PM |
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380860967487 on the bay looks interesting. Honda v4
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matt5964
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| posted on 22/6/14 at 04:13 PM |
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Or the triumph 321435588131
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 22/6/14 at 05:10 PM |
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Thanks guys.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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hkp57
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| posted on 22/6/14 at 08:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt5964
380860967487 on the bay looks interesting. Honda v4
These V4 engines are great, this one looks like it is out of the crosstourer as it has a shaft drive output shaft. The sports tourer version is chain
drive so would need to sit across the chassis while this one would go inline,
Crosstourer has less horsepower but more torque than the chain drive version which has 170bhp as standard
Both come in the DCT (dual clutch transmission) which makes it a dual clutch 6 speed auto box with a manual option built in for a button shift, has
traction control and down shift auto blip built in.
My crosstourer is the DCT version so would be perfect for your narrow chassis, as standard it has 130BHP and 126 Nm torque
[Edited on 22/6/14 by hkp57]
Fleet
SKC Raptor R - Hayabusa
Toyota C-HR Hybrid Limited Edition
Honda VFR1200 CrossTourer
DCT
Marlin Roadster 1800
Mercedes Vito 116 Sport
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daniel mason
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| posted on 22/6/14 at 08:30 PM |
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You would be better with a mid engined,chain driven setup if running a midi. If you want me to take some measurements of my radical then I will. The
busa fits nicely and with the dry sump it also sits very very low
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ian.stewart
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| posted on 23/6/14 at 04:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
I'm rather fond of the the old TL1000 engine, having put one in the Westfield a while ago.
Cheap, cheerful, but now acquiring a 'classic' status which might detract from affordability at some point. The ngine itself is difficult
to fault, very solid. Rods have roller bearings, etc., etc. The clutch isn't the strongest, but then it's a matter of slippage, not
breakage, so not severe.
Only 'problem?' I had was the sump, it's integral to the crankcase. It took a lot of welding work to get what I wanted to do with
it, but if an inch or two in engine height isn't an issue to you, the stock setup is pretty flat and car-friendly as is.
I guess the ultimate alternative (more popular) to the bike engine idea would be a pinto, a short prop and a sierra differential.
Another TL user on here, I thought I was the only one, Mine is a bit different to the average kit car, being built into an Austin 7 box saloon, I
too would be interested in pictures of the sump
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/152938/austin-7-box-saloon#.U6hRGekg_IU
[Edited on 23/6/14 by ian.stewart]
Something different, Very different..............
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 23/6/14 at 05:51 PM |
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I like the sound of the TL1000, could someone please measure how wide one is?
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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ian.stewart
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| posted on 23/6/14 at 06:08 PM |
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All these dims are approx., but not far out, cam cover to cam cover is 570mm, width is alternator cover to clutch cover is 380mm and height is about
660mm to the top of the air horns
Something different, Very different..............
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 23/6/14 at 06:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ian.stewart
All these dims are approx., but not far out, cam cover to cam cover is 570mm, width is alternator cover to clutch cover is 380mm and height is about
660mm to the top of the air horns
Thanks
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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philfingers
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| posted on 24/6/14 at 09:56 AM |
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I don't know much about the TL engine, but know a fair amount about bikes, in particular big V twins
Stay away from dukes, they're a little fragile and need a love [i've had 7]. The RSVR engine I have is a cracking engine
Don't underestimate the dry sump, it would be a great addition to a BEC where lots of trouble and grief is caused by oil surge requiring engines
to need baffling etc. The RSVR engine in my Edwards makes 123 at the back wheel. they're reliable on the most part, chain driven cams, rarely
need the valves clearances doing at the first 9k service and take the abuse. Issues really are the sprag clutch in the starter, which occurs if
you're trying to turn it over on a low battery, starter solenoid's not the best and can cause the sprag issues and regulator/rectifer
issues, which plague lots of bikes.
RSVR engine is cheap too
The R1 engine in the Phoenix I have is known to be reasonably good and reliable with a few mods including a baffle plate and breather mod. In reality
you may say pay [for arguments sake- don't know current prices] £500 for a Mille/RSVR/Tuono engine and £750 for a R1 engine. So £250 buys you
an extra 30 ish HP
RSVR's in stock trim have one exhaust on one side, here's the RSVR Edwards I have, no 63 of 451
The true home of cars born under the Sylva name - http://jpsc.org.uk/forum
STM Phoenix R1
Sold-Sylva Striker 1300xf, 40s etc
Sold-Sylva Phoenix, 1300xf, BVH, 234cam, 2xDCOE 40s, live axle - 'old school', rally car and a few bikes
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ed1801
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| posted on 24/6/14 at 10:42 AM |
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That is one nice looking bike.
It's all about the noise with V twins... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOCTePKLJds
That's got to be worth the 30 horse power diference!!!
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 24/6/14 at 12:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by philfingers
I don't know much about the TL engine, but know a fair amount about bikes, in particular big V twins
Stay away from dukes, they're a little fragile and need a love [i've had 7]. The RSVR engine I have is a cracking engine
Don't underestimate the dry sump, it would be a great addition to a BEC where lots of trouble and grief is caused by oil surge requiring engines
to need baffling etc. The RSVR engine in my Edwards makes 123 at the back wheel. they're reliable on the most part, chain driven cams, rarely
need the valves clearances doing at the first 9k service and take the abuse. Issues really are the sprag clutch in the starter, which occurs if
you're trying to turn it over on a low battery, starter solenoid's not the best and can cause the sprag issues and regulator/rectifer
issues, which plague lots of bikes.
RSVR engine is cheap too
The R1 engine in the Phoenix I have is known to be reasonably good and reliable with a few mods including a baffle plate and breather mod. In reality
you may say pay [for arguments sake- don't know current prices] £500 for a Mille/RSVR/Tuono engine and £750 for a R1 engine. So £250 buys you
an extra 30 ish HP
RSVR's in stock trim have one exhaust on one side, here's the RSVR Edwards I have, no 63 of 451
I don't have an issue between the V2 & V4 - I do have an issue with space on my chassis and I want to fit the most powerful engine I can in
the space I have.
I have ~400mm between the rails so would fit whatever fits (and is recommended ), that said, I don't think an i4 engine would fit - they
appear to be ~100mm too wide (on average).
Keep the suggestions coming (and any dimenions/drawings if anyone has any please)
EDIT: OK, I've confused myself now, are Aprila RSV bikes available with Vtwins & V4s?
[Edited on 24/6/14 by onenastyviper]
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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ed1801
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| posted on 24/6/14 at 12:39 PM |
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Yep, RSV1000 is a twin, RSV4 is much newer and is a V4.
If the twin engine only just fits then you are unlikely to be able to get anything more than one cylinder wide in there. There was a late RSV1000R
Factory that had 150hp I think. Check MCN for the variants.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/mcn/bikereviews/searchresults/Aprilia/RSV1000/_/N-153+2185+189
[Edited on 24/6/14 by ed1801]
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Minicooper
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| posted on 24/6/14 at 12:39 PM |
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At 400mm you are going to be limited to a V twin of some sort, if it's 450mm you might just get a triumph triple in there.
A quick measurement of a GSXR750 K1 and an R1 shows they are about 480mm ish.
The cylinder head on a GSXR750 is under 400mm so it may be possible depending on the style of the chassis rear end possible to get the R1 and likes in
there.
David
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