some jap rear calipers like the later hyundai coupes have a generous pad size but are a bit pricey new
well it doesn't actually!! It never ceases to amaze me how bad the brakes are on the old girl each time I get in it after driving anything else.
It passed its MOT the other day but I need to sort it if I'm going to get some decent use out of it this year.
In 1977 the Lancia Montecarlos were reknowned for having poor brakes, so you can imagine how they feel 35yrs on, and it now has 150BHP which
doesn't help As std it had piddling little 227x10mm discs all round, and used to be servo assisted just on the fronts (mega wet weather
lock-ups!! ) but this has long since gone.
A while back I upgraded the fronts to 240x20mm Uno turbo discs and used Ford calipers as these happen to have the same piston size as the originals.
This stopped the horrendous brake fade / fluid boiling but didn't really add to the overall stopping power. The 240's were chosen to fit
inside the std 13" wheels. I've now got 14" wheels so have a bit more room to play with. Ideally I'd like 257x20mm vented discs
all round, but that's proving a bit tricky. The fronts should be easy-ish by just making new caliper brackets to replace the custom ones I
already have on there. However the rears are proving trickier. I need a 'leading' rear caliper c/w handbrake that will fit a 257x20mm disc
with a piston size as near to 38mm as possible. I thought I'd cracked it with MR2 ones but a trial fit showed these to be far too bulky to be
considered So, unless someone has the answer on here then I'm looking at another option. I'm looking to 'space-out' the existing
caliper and fit a 257x12mm solid disc. This isn't quite as straight-forward as it sounds though. The caliper is only moving out 15mm (30mm / 2)
leaving no room to fit a bracket in between it and the hub. The std disc has an overall depth of 50mm and I've found a 257mm disc with a 40mm
height. I reckon this'll allow me to get a 10mm bracket in there to space it all out. So here come's the question - I was going to make the
bracket out of 50x10mm flat alloy bar, will this be suitable? The hole centres (M10 bolts)from the hub and caliper carrier will only be 15mm apart so
can't see there been too much stress on it. I'm gonna make sure there's plenty of 'meat' around it too. Or should I just do
it in the heavier and harder to work with steel?? Bearing in mind I'll be using a pillar-drill, hacksaw and grinder to do this rather than a
fully equipped machine shop.
cheapest calipers will be the vag rear fitted to all manor of golf/passat etc . one trick i find helps is to rig the hydraulics up and clamp the
caliper to the disc with pressure rather than trying to wedge it in position with packers . for me i would use steel rather than alloy for piece of
mind
some jap rear calipers like the later hyundai coupes have a generous pad size but are a bit pricey new
Peugeot / Citroen (Saxo, 106 etc) offer a good option for a cheap rear caliper. And they will fit under 13" wheels so 14s shouldn't be a
problem - here on my Locost a few years ago -
Rear caliper conversion 3
quote:
Originally posted by froggy
cheapest calipers will be the vag rear fitted to all manor of golf/passat etc . one trick i find helps is to rig the hydraulics up and clamp the caliper to the disc with pressure rather than trying to wedge it in position with packers . for me i would use steel rather than alloy for piece of mind
some jap rear calipers like the later hyundai coupes have a generous pad size but are a bit pricey new
Unfortunately they're trailing rather than leading
calipers. I considered using them on the opposite side but that adds complications.
Does that put the bleed at the bottom then ? My pig has the bleed underneath do I have to take them off to bleed them .
Can't you just swap sides?
MG TF Rear Calipers are 38mm bore for 10mm discs.
One thing to watch out for if the discs require the calipers to be spaced out from the brakets in addition to shear force because moving the
caliper outboard creates a lever which causes an increased torue to be generated which tries to twist the calliper bracket off its
mountings
As to making the calliper braket out of "alloy" there are hundreds of grades of aluminium alloys some of which are as soft as toffee
especially when subject to heat so unless you seek advice on the metalurgy and do some calcs it would be a safer bet for you to use steel.
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
Can't you just swap sides?
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
MG TF Rear Calipers are 38mm bore for 10mm discs.
One thing to watch out for if the discs require the calipers to be spaced out from the brakets in addition to shear force because moving the caliper outboard creates a lever which causes an increased torue to be generated which tries to twist the calliper bracket off its mountings
As to making the calliper braket out of "alloy" there are hundreds of grades of aluminium alloys some of which are as soft as toffee especially when subject to heat so unless you seek advice on the metalurgy and do some calcs it would be a safer bet for you to use steel.
Looking at the Brakes Int online shop it shows the Monte fitted with the same pressure regulator in the rear brake line as the FWD Beta.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Looking at the Brakes Int online shop it shows the Monte fitted with the same pressure regulator in the rear brake line as the FWD Beta.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
MG TF Rear Calipers are 38mm bore for 10mm discs.
One thing to watch out for if the discs require the calipers to be spaced out from the brakets in addition to shear force because moving the caliper outboard creates a lever which causes an increased torue to be generated which tries to twist the calliper bracket off its mountings
As to making the calliper braket out of "alloy" there are hundreds of grades of aluminium alloys some of which are as soft as toffee especially when subject to heat so unless you seek advice on the metalurgy and do some calcs it would be a safer bet for you to use steel.
Cool, cheers fella. I've just got a 2.5" x 3/8" x 12" bar in 6082 for £6 from a local stockholders
Let the drilling commence!!
If you're tapping the ally, may I suggest drilling the tapping hole slightly undersize to make sure you get a full thread? So for M10x1.5, instead of using a 8.5mm drill, use a 21/64". Plenty of cutting juice and lots of elbow grease....
I'm presently looking at brake upgrades too for my X1/9s, which have the same layout as the Monte. The problem we have is the need for more equal
braking effort front and rear because of the mid engine layout, compared to the FWD cars we are trying to source our budget brake upgrades from.
At the front I have got 257x20 discs (Alfa 155/Punto/Brava) with matching Alfa 155 Girling calipers/carriers. These were a direct bolt-on with 5 mm
spacers.
At the back I'm looking at 257x12 discs (again from Alfa 155/Punto lesser models) with Girling 38 mm piston rear calipers from the old
Croma/Thema/Alfa 164. The tricky bit is the adapter brackets. I have to space the calipers forward 6mm, radially 17mm and go from 100mm c/c to 90mm
c/c holes. The close hole centres means that the lugs on the hub and caliper carriers interfere with the opposing fixing bolts, needing some milling
done to make a suitable bracket.
If you want to stay with the Bendix seizing calipers at the rear, 38 mm piston versions are available from certain Lada models. This is a popular x1/9
upgrade to give a bit more rear bias.
Another thought I had was to use 257x20 discs and suitable calipers same as the front, and add a spot caliper for the handbrake, perhaps mounting off
the chunky steering arm coming off the rear of the hub carrier.
If you can go bigger still (e.g. 16" wheels), the lug-bolt interference problems go away - on my V6 X1/9 I have 304x28 discs with the infamous
screeching Brembos at the front and 284x22 discs with Audi TT/Golf 4 Girling handbrake calipers at the back.
if you need anything milling your welcome to pop over, I am only in Mexborough. I have always liked Monte Carlo's, remember lusting over one when i was 15 !
quote:
Originally posted by rj
if you need anything milling your welcome to pop over, I am only in Mexborough. I have always liked Monte Carlo's, remember lusting over one when i was 15 !
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
If you're tapping the ally, may I suggest drilling the tapping hole slightly undersize to make sure you get a full thread? So for M10x1.5, instead of using a 8.5mm drill, use a 21/64". Plenty of cutting juice and lots of elbow grease....
quote:
Originally posted by rachaeljf
I'm presently looking at brake upgrades too for my X1/9s, which have the same layout as the Monte. The problem we have is the need for more equal braking effort front and rear because of the mid engine layout, compared to the FWD cars we are trying to source our budget brake upgrades from.
At the front I have got 257x20 discs (Alfa 155/Punto/Brava) with matching Alfa 155 Girling calipers/carriers. These were a direct bolt-on with 5 mm spacers.
At the back I'm looking at 257x12 discs (again from Alfa 155/Punto lesser models) with Girling 38 mm piston rear calipers from the old Croma/Thema/Alfa 164. The tricky bit is the adapter brackets. I have to space the calipers forward 6mm, radially 17mm and go from 100mm c/c to 90mm c/c holes. The close hole centres means that the lugs on the hub and caliper carriers interfere with the opposing fixing bolts, needing some milling done to make a suitable bracket.
If you want to stay with the Bendix seizing calipers at the rear, 38 mm piston versions are available from certain Lada models. This is a popular x1/9 upgrade to give a bit more rear bias.
Another thought I had was to use 257x20 discs and suitable calipers same as the front, and add a spot caliper for the handbrake, perhaps mounting off the chunky steering arm coming off the rear of the hub carrier.
If you can go bigger still (e.g. 16" wheels), the lug-bolt interference problems go away - on my V6 X1/9 I have 304x28 discs with the infamous screeching Brembos at the front and 284x22 discs with Audi TT/Golf 4 Girling handbrake calipers at the back.
Your front solution sounds similar to what I'm aiming for but I just happen to be using a Ford caliper. I'd be
interested to see photos if you only needed a 5mm spacer to fit them, top stuff!! Well, that was a frustrating evening!!
I based my calculations on internet data about the discs. It stated the Monte ones were 50mm high and my new Punto ones were 40mm. This gave me a nice
round 10mm to make my bracket from and everything would fall into place. My new discs arrived today and I got a nice piece of 6082 alloy and set about
making the bracket. Spent all evening cutting / drilling / tapping, and I was quite pleased with the end result I trial fitted the bracket and
caliper carrier onto the hub and all was well until I tried to fit the new disc. Turns out the Monte disc is 46mm high not 50mm which throws the
caliper carrier 4mm out of line!! All is not lost though, I'm going to start all over again but do the bracket in 6mm steel instead!!
[Edited on 26/4/12 by Nickp]
cheer up nick , you should see the pile of stuff ive made and had to bin on my car
I know, it's all part of the 'fun'!!
And I've now got a nice shiny ally template to work from
When faced with a similar problem making the mounts for my mates rally car, I plopped the ally in the lathe and faced a few mm off. Would that make your mounts fit?
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
When faced with a similar problem making the mounts for my mates rally car, I plopped the ally in the lathe and faced a few mm off. Would that make your mounts fit?
I've reverted to 6mm steel and got a 2ft bar of 6x50mm for £3 from a local engineers
Got a go at it this morning-
Here's the discs for comparison-
Managed to turn this into this-
Because of the closeness of the hole I had trim the point off the bolt head once it was torqued and loctited in place-
And a bit more trimming for clearance-
And all in place :clap:
Just need to do the other side before I can go for a road test.
IMHO, I would have rotated the carrier/caliper a bit to move the holes further apart but <<Hancock voice on>> Good job. <</Hancock voice off>>
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
IMHO, I would have rotated the carrier/caliper a bit to move the holes further apart but <<Hancock voice on>> Good job. <</Hancock voice off>>
Handbrake, schmandbrake....
Think I'd prefer cap head 12:9 bolts to ones with 1/3 of the head sawn off.
Other than that and a spot of paint to keep the rust at bay it's looking good.
[Edited on 27/4/12 by iank]
quote:
Originally posted by iank
Think I'd prefer cap head 12:9 bolts to ones with 1/3 of the head sawn off.
Other than that and a spot of paint to keep the rust at bay it's looking good.
[Edited on 27/4/12 by iank]
That turned out well in the end! I promise I'll post a couple of pics of my efforts tomorrow.
quote:
Originally posted by rachaeljf
That turned out well in the end! I promise I'll post a couple of pics of my efforts tomorrow.
Nick, I've put some photos in my archive for you. They show the Alfa 155 carriers with Fiat Croma (old model) calipers, which appear identical to
the Alfa ones. However, the Croma caliper carriers are a few mm narrower than the Alfa ones, so the lugs on the Croma hub carrier must be those few mm
further out from the axle.
Cheers R
Cool, that does look a simpler solution than my Ford ones. I already have the Ford ones though and have just drawn up my extended brackets to take the
257mm discs.
Spent most of Saturday replacing the 2 pipes from the brake master cylinder to the resevoir, running along bulkhead behind dash/heater etc. They were
original and in a pretty bad way as you can imagine. What a PITA job!! Seat out, glovebox out, column/pedal box dropped etc etc!! But it's done
now and shouldn't need doing for another 35yrs. The system has some nice fresh AP Racing Dot5 fluid in there now. Also got my heater valve moving
while I had my head jammed in the drivers footwell.
Spent yesterday doing my front 'big' brake conversion-
Bracket in place and some minor (few mm) 'shaving' of the hub assembly to allow for the extra 4mm of back spacing of the new 257mm disc.
Just been for a proper test drive and the difference is pretty amazing. There's so much more stopping power now and I can even take it right to
the point of lock-up (tyres just starting to chirp) which has never been an option since I've had the car. It just gives so much more confidence
when driving with any gusto, which I generally do The pedal is still a bit on the squidgy side probably due to my flexi S1 pedal assemby, but I
can live with that for now.
To summarise the cost involved in this upgrade-
Front discs Lancia Thema (257x20) - £34
Rear discs Fiat Punto fronts (257x12) - £18
Rear std Ferodo pads - £20
AP racing Dot 5 fluid - £15ish
Steel for caliper brackets - £7
Total - £96
Quite a result for less than £100 outlay me thinks ;D
Looks good.
The most expensive items on my conversion (other than the OBP pedal box) were the Ferodo DS2500 front pads.
- Jim