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Sylve Phoenix rebuild
qwerty_100 - 21/7/14 at 02:32 PM

I have been a member for about 4 years know as and this is a new section I thought I would lend some support. So I purchased this about 18 months to 2 years ago with the intension of just getting it on the road as they say one thing led to another it well you all know the rest. It is almost there probably could do with a complete paint job but just do not have time as would like to drive this year.( I am lead to believe it is Ian Graysons ex race car ?)

[img]http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/gbszero/media/CentralBedfordshire-20130726-00092.jpg.html?sort=2&o=3[/img]

[img]http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/gbszero/media/IMG-20140720-00002.jpg.html?sort=2&o=12[/img]

First picture is not long after I got the car it had a very poorly CVH engine in it with a hole in the side of the block, so temp fitted redtop (Vauxhall) and fabed up gearbox and engine mounts. Engine has now had a full rebuild.
So then I set about tidying up the wiring and you guest it I know have a nice new wiring loom.
New dash fabricated with new clocks.
New fuel tank and sender .
New front callipers and disks.
Thanks to Steve at fury sports cars he sold me just the bulge from one of his bonnets as I could not get one to fit and this has been fibre glassed in and sprayed although I think I will end up getting the whole car painted in the winter as my paint work is not the best but will do for know.
The wheels and the roll bar have been stripped and re powder in red as I was not a big fan of the green.

There is still plenty to do .
Make new interior
Cooling system (bit unsure which direction to go in)
Refit whole car
At the moment I have a 4 speed box with tranex gears in.(sounds nice but would prefer a 5 speed ) so may change.
Suspension set up probably at procomp ( may be new shocks as the ones on are spax and quite old.)
M.O.T

I wish I could upload more pics not just then and know any advise on the car is most welcome cheers Kev

jeffw - 21/7/14 at 02:40 PM



jeffw - 21/7/14 at 02:42 PM

Engine look about 6" further forward than I would expect.

Dopdog - 21/7/14 at 02:44 PM

is that a Phoenix or the spyder fury?

adithorp - 21/7/14 at 02:58 PM

Early Phoenix with the Fury-like rear.

jeffw - 21/7/14 at 03:07 PM

Actually it really looks like a Fury

qwerty_100 - 21/7/14 at 03:39 PM

Thanks for the response guys
Jeff: The engine can not go any further back as the gear box bell housing would hit the drivers side footwell it only clears buy 7-10 mm now. Thanks for posting the photos much appreciated
I believe this was called the MK4 clubman/Phoenix, probably looks like a fury because the bulge is of a fury.

qwerty_100 - 21/7/14 at 03:47 PM

One further question ? What have people done to the exhaust side with regard heat shield to stop the interior panelling getting to hot to sit next to cheers.

adithorp - 21/7/14 at 03:53 PM

My Fury has heat-mat on the outside of the side panel. It still gets pretty warm though.

I have seen one or two Furys with ally panels on both inside and outside the chassis on that side, making it double skinned.

qwerty_100 - 21/7/14 at 03:59 PM

Thanks Adi I will have a look and get some, I have thought of skinning the inside but its a tight fit at the moment. The inside was not designed for short over weight middle aged men carrying a few to many pounds at least its cosy.

Dopdog - 21/7/14 at 04:19 PM

What gearbox do you have? on my first striker I ended up cutting the bell housing on that side to get the engine further back. is this not an option for you?

pictures we need pictures

Dopdog - 21/7/14 at 04:28 PM

OK so I have just followed the link to your pictures and your car is a striker MK4 Clubman, it is a striker chassis as you can tell by the round tubes on the outside of the chassis where you sit. I also have just seen that you are fitting the XE engine, this is the same install I did on my striker. If you follow the below link it will lead you to Bens thread and it shows the engine install. If you contact Ben I am sure he will show you what he has done.

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=182409

[Edited on 21/7/14 by Dopdog]

qwerty_100 - 21/7/14 at 04:52 PM

Thanks dopdog I am using a rocket box 4 speed with tranex gear set. I would prefer a 5 speed type 9 I have the engine as far back as possible and have already cut the bell housing slightly. I have PM,d Ben before about his cooling system. Looking at his pictures I would say the two engines look to be in the same ish place and angle. I will try to upload some more pictures later showing the engine position and the bike carbs etc. As I am a bit of a clutz with software this could be a long night. You are spot on it is a MK4 clubman cheers for the help cheers Kev

jeffw - 21/7/14 at 06:14 PM

Looking at it more closely I think it is an optical illusion and it is as far back as it will go.

philfingers - 27/7/14 at 01:07 PM

Interesting thread. I was about to say striker mkiIV club mans. But the bonnet is Phoenix I think. The early striker clubmans had a flat front, could later incarnations were like the Phoenix. Or it is indeed a Phoenix bonnet. The earlier strikers had square tube chassis around the sidescreen openings. If it's a striker chassis you'll see where the windscreen support has been cut off. Lots of strikers have been rebodied with the Phoenix body as it's the best looking body ;-)
What bel housing are you using? Alloy RS2000?

Phil

qwerty_100 - 27/7/14 at 09:09 PM

Hi Phill
I am using the QED bell housing that converts from ford to Vauxhall managed to finish painting the bonnet today looks ok but still have some reaction lines and its black and as I am not a painter I am sort of pleased. Next up is the interior I will try to post some pictures later thanks again for all the advise I am hoping to have it ready for Donnington work and home permitting cheers for now Kev.

jeffw - 28/7/14 at 06:02 AM

Are you sure this is not a Sylva Fury? The bonnet doesn't match the Phoenix



Phoenix



fury



yours.

Note the bonnet bulge and the indicators. The Phoenix has specific raised area for indicators and the headlight area is larger than what you have. The Fury picture matches yours, front and back.

[Edited on 28/7/14 by jeffw]

Sam_68 - 28/7/14 at 06:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Are you sure this is not a Sylva Fury? The bonnet doesn't match the Phoenix


Phoenix


That's a 'second generation' Phoenix, though.

The Original Striker MK.IV/Clubmans/Phoenix came with two bonnets: one as per the OP's car, and the 'downforce' bonnet, which my car had:



The Fury was based on the original Phoenix/Clubmans, but with a re-engineered chassis to allow doors and windscreen (though Fisher later took it full circle by creating an aeroscreened 'spyder' version), hence had an essentially identical bonnet.

jeffw - 28/7/14 at 06:43 AM

OK....but was it ever called Phoenix? My understand from conversation with Jeremy that it wasn't.

[Edited on 28/7/14 by jeffw]

philfingers - 28/7/14 at 08:17 AM

Jeff, you're correct I'm sure. It was a Striker MkIV clubmans, the Phoenix was yet to be born. It may well be documented in that magazine article, I'm offshore at the moment so can't check. If not then it could well be in the book ian stent wrote in the mid 90's about the various seven types around at the time. I'm struggling to open the images, on a very slow connection here. Certainly the Phoenix was the firsts and only one with the rounded back end.

philfingers - 28/7/14 at 08:34 AM

Looking again I was wrong re the bonnet being Phoenix. I know the first MkIV came with the air dam type front, there was a later bonnet similar to a fury, tho the fury didn't exist as such at the time. As I remember the MkIV was out maybe 87/88. The fury didn't appear until quite a bit later. And then it came first with doors and a screen. The spyder version was later still
I can't remember what suspension the MkIV had, I recollect the out board double wishbones at the front as per MKIII Striker.
Kev- what history do you have for the car? Also what suspension is on the front?

[Edited on 28/7/14 by philfingers]

qwerty_100 - 28/7/14 at 09:15 AM

Hi Phil
As far as I know the car was built for Ian Grayson to race in the 750 motor club series it can be seen in CCC being tested against a westfield and another make I have a copy of the mag. It was then purchased by the guy I bought it from who toured in it and may have done some hill climbs but not to sure about that. It was fitted with a 1.6CVH on twin 40,s and a 4 speed box said to have Tranex internals. When I got the car the engine had a big hole in the block so I decided to put the Vauxhall redtop in as I already had 2 of these in the garage, this caused me to have to put a bigger bonnet bulge on which Steve at Fury sports cars sold me and I fibre glassed this into the original bonnet.( the bulge is from one of the fury range cant remember which)
The suspension is spax and look very old and are probably not much use so will need changing. As far as I know it is a Mk4 but had the body put on at the build stage. It has the single round lights at the back and not individuals like the later ones. The car came with an extensive folder and receipts hope this clarifies things thanks again for your help and advise guys cheers Kev.

philfingers - 28/7/14 at 09:41 AM

Sounds interesting Kev. Out of interest what front suspension is on the car, is it rocking arm or outboard dampers with double wishbones?
Also what year was the magazine article?
Interesting read all the same, good luck with the rebuild

jeffw - 28/7/14 at 10:04 AM







[Edited on 28/7/14 by jeffw]

philfingers - 28/7/14 at 12:20 PM

Ah yes, that's (as far as I know) the modified escort mk2 front legs with rocker arms. There were two options for the lowers. Either the stock escort bottom Track control arms (TCA) and a tie bar or the custom adjustable one. You have the latter. That is good.
I can see now, and my memory returns! The XE starter is on the offside if the car which limits the engine location

qwerty_100 - 28/7/14 at 03:07 PM

Hi Phil
The article that I referred to was in CCC October 1998. Mark Hales tested 4 cars not 3 cars as I originally said they were The Eldon V8
A Westfield SE 1600
My Phoenix/MK4
Sylva Striker
I found a copy of the issue on ebay after tracking down year and month and it makes for good reading, No need to answer the other questions as Jeff has posted some pictures. I have a full set of suspension bushes but would like to change the upper and lower ball joints but I am not a 100% sure what they are off. If when you are back let me know and I can post the article to you or drop it in I am often up that neck of the woods with work cheers Kev

Sam_68 - 28/7/14 at 05:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
OK....but was it ever called Phoenix? My understand from conversation with Jeremy that it wasn't.


Far be it from me to disagree with Jeremy, but I'm pretty sure it was, yes.

My recollection (and it's obviously a number of years ago now) was that the Phoenix name arose when Chris Appleby briefly took on the project from Jeremy. I think I've got rid of it in recent clear-out, but unless I'm going senile, I'm sure I had a brochure from during this era that I got directly from Chris at Stoneleigh in the name of 'Phoenix Sports Cars'.

A brief Google suggests I'm not alone in this understanding:

link
link

Marketing of the car subsequently passed back to Jeremy (who told me that Chris had wrecked the moulds for the 'downforce' front end by trimming off the returns), but the Phoenix name stuck.

Edited to add:

I'm now absolutely sure that the Phoenix name pre-dates the 'current' bodyshell. Among the handful of old kit car mags that I haven't thrown out is a copy of Kitcars International from March 1993, which has a couple of pages listing back-issue articles, amongst which: 'SYLVA PHOENIX. Track test of a championship winner. MAR 92'.

[Edited on 28/7/14 by Sam_68]

philfingers - 28/7/14 at 06:55 PM

That later article confirms my thoughts and earlier comments that the MkIV was originally called the Sylva Clubmans or MkIV Striker with chassis using the modified MkIII chassis (I owned a MkIII from 94-96, Q421 PFW). It was later it became known as the Phoenix.
I remember back around 92 going to Martley, Worcs. to Teme Valley Race Engines (in a BDA Escort for tuning). Graham's partner had the agency, I think for Sylva. There was a fast Fury there. At the time I think the Fury was still under Sylva ownership. I still have a magazine somewhere at home with a feature on it

Kev, I will also have the CCC issue too, I have them all from about 1990 until the last issue. What a great mag that died off. Will have a search for it

Sam_68 - 28/7/14 at 07:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by philfingers...the MkIV was originally called the Sylva Clubmans or MkIV Striker with chassis using the modified MkIII chassis (I owned a MkIII from 94-96, Q421 PFW).


Yes, I've got a copy of the original build manual for the Striker (with proper photographs, individually pasted-in, presumably because small print runs of colour printing were too expensive back then!), which refers to it as the 'Striker Mk.4 Clubman' [sic].

As you say, the early Clubman cars (including my own) used Chevette uprights and outboard springs, but later cars were fitted with the Escort strut-derived uprights and rocker arms.

Jeremy told me at the time that the Chevette uprights and outboard suspension actually offered slightly better geometry, in his opinion, but that later Strikers (and Furys) standardised on the Escort components for the convenience of 'single donor' sourcing (at least if you turned a blind eye to the need for an Allegro steering column and a few other 'foreign' bits!).

philfingers - 28/7/14 at 08:25 PM

I have to say that I've always felt that my MkIII striker handled better than my 1st Phoenix with striker MkII chassis, my MkII striker I just sold and the IRS Phoenix I have now. But then it could be 20 years of rose tinted memories!
Sam- that clubmans of yours looks lovely too, nice traditional old school look. I bought an old Raleigh Whisper the other week for the 1968 plate to use on my (2005 registered Phoenix) but didn't have the heart to ruin the Raleighs identity. Best give Kev his thread back, my apologies Kev :-)

qwerty_100 - 29/7/14 at 06:30 AM

No need to apologise Phil it has been very interesting learning about all the different marks of striker/phoenix/MK4 there are, hopefully I will have it back on the road or the Donnington show and we can all have a good old chin wag once again thanks for all the advise and as per previous post does anyone know what lower and upper ball joints are required cheers Kev.

philfingers - 29/7/14 at 07:04 AM

Sorry I don't know. But I'm sure if you google it you'll find the answer. You'd be better maybe looking on JPSC forum. Sherpa ball joint rings a bell. Do they need to be changed?
When's the Donnington show?
I'm going to try and make the Blyton track day, 18th Sept

Sam_68 - 29/7/14 at 10:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by qwerty_100...does anyone know what lower and upper ball joints are required cheers Kev.


Assuming it's the Escort strut based front suspension, the early build manual I have specifies Vauxhall Chevette top wishbone knuckle joints for the rocker arms.

The lower track control arm is listed in the manual as standard Escort Mk. II (fitted with a Sylva-supplied compression strut), so would have been standard Escort Mk.II lower ball joint. Yours is the later tubular alternative, though, hence will be different - can't help you there, I'm afraid!

qwerty_100 - 30/7/14 at 06:59 PM

Thanks any way Sam I think it is time to take them off and get the parts book out Chevette sounds familiar and I am sure the guy in the local parts shop will be able to help many thanks Kev

philfingers - 30/7/14 at 07:45 PM

Pretty sure the lower is the Sherpa QR1774RH

I have the PDFs of both the sylva MkII and MkIV construction manual and the Fisher Fury build manual 94-04
The former states the upper is late metro top wishbone joints for the rocker arms
Fisher manual states chevette

When I get home I'm more than happy to email them but not a chance from here at the moment
The former covers the MkIV striker too

Interestingly it is dated 1987 and reprinted 1999. There's no mention of Phoenix. Only 'striker MkIV clubman' !

Sam_68 - 31/7/14 at 06:10 AM

That is interesting: my copy of the manual is the original (1987) version, not the later re-print. So clearly the spec of the upper wishbone joints were changed from Chevette to Metro at some stage?

Does your version still show the Mk.IV 'Clubman' as having outboard suspension with Chevette uprights, or had it standardised on the Escort-based rocker suspension by then?

bigfoot4616 - 31/7/14 at 07:43 AM

my striker (originally a mk3 but at some point someone converted it to inboard as mk2) with escort uprights uses the metro upper balljoint.
my rocker arms are different to the pics above, the ball joint screws into the top of the upright.
the lower joint is from a sherpa, not sure on part numbers, raw have just supplied me with new ones along with my new wishbones.


link shows my uprights with metro balljoint.
the bolt on steering arm means mine are from a RS escort (or capri i think)

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=101166

[Edited on 31/7/14 by bigfoot4616]

philfingers - 31/7/14 at 08:14 AM

Bigfoot-
So is it just a single stud from the ball joint through the outboard end of the rocker (like my 2005 STM Phoenix below) or is it a two bolt arrangement?



[Edited on 31/7/14 by philfingers]

bigfoot4616 - 31/7/14 at 08:46 AM

same as your pic, although my rocker is a different shape, much more box like.

philfingers - 31/7/14 at 09:03 AM

I guess yours are the chevette ones then Kev

qwerty_100 - 31/7/14 at 09:47 AM

Thanks Phil I am going to take them off and take them with me so I can get the chap to match but chevette seems to be the favourite thanks to all for the help specially Phil as I now know what model my gar is and I will try to post some pics of engine bay and seats soon cheers Kev