daniel mason
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| posted on 26/8/12 at 08:51 PM |
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when it comes to bike engines,is bigger better?
am looking into all possibilites with regards to modifying my caterham and have had contact with a well known bike engined specialist.(very very
helpful he was too)
would you guys say a really high revving 1000cc bike like R1 or CBR1000rr would be adequate or do you think the extra torque from the
busa/zx12/zzr1400 would be beneficial in such a lightweight car?
also with clutch and oil surge/sump issues,and reliability what would you guys sugges is the way forward? cheers
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bi22le
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| posted on 26/8/12 at 08:58 PM |
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I am not an expert but as far as i understand the zx10 engines are good. They offer the high reving and good power of a 1000cc, well enough to stand
their ground in RGB but most of all dont require dry or baffle sump.
Also bare in mind the accusump is a tidy way to prevent oil starvation if you have a short sump.
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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paublo999
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| posted on 26/8/12 at 09:14 PM |
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Competition - yes, road car zx10 is plenty.
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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RK
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| posted on 26/8/12 at 09:22 PM |
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Again, not an expert, but would think the Busa setup is very expensive compared to the other options, mainly because they recommend a different sump
etc.
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maccmike
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| posted on 26/8/12 at 09:45 PM |
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anything above a thou is plenty. busa's are massive money. more torque will make road driving nicer. buy the best you can afford - busa/12/14.
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franky
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| posted on 26/8/12 at 10:13 PM |
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just make sure you buy a whole bike that's running, not an engine that's been ripped out of a bike in the states or that's been
crashed and run on its side. Don't buy of anyone that says it 'looks' about 3000miles old either.
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maccmike
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| posted on 26/8/12 at 10:55 PM |
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+1
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BobM
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 06:34 AM |
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You'll get a bit more torque from a bigger engine but the difference isn't as noticeable as you might expect.
A couple of factors to consider:
- litre engines are more plentiful as they're the de rigeur sports bike, therefore more engines available. The sports bikes also tend to get
thrown down the road more frequently than the bigger sports tourers (Busa, ZZR1400 etc).
- litre engines are quite a bit lighter than the bigger ones
- most of the bigger ones need a dry sump = more weight and expense
- the actual power output from the litre engines isn't much different to the Busa, ZX12s etc.
- be careful who you buy from as already stated, all is not always as it seems. Trustworthiness aside even reputable specialists have their
biases.
I went for a ZX10 as they're a strong motor in terms of power, torque and durability and tend to be quite a lot cheaper than the alternative CBR
and GSXR. You do need a baffled sump, Andy Bates sells one which has a proven record in RGB cars. The 06-07 ZX10s put out 155+ bhp at the wheels
(chain drive car), the 08-09s are 165+. My 07 Busa Fury was <160.
Not very Locost but very BEC 
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Davey D
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 06:36 AM |
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 you're not looking at defiling the Caterham already!? I thought you was happy with it going byyour other posts
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daniel mason
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 07:40 AM |
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the car is fantastic dave. the only slight problem is gear ratios with the engine i have and the type 9.i always wanted to upgrade the car but wanted
a good base to build from. which i have.
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StevieB
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 08:46 AM |
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IMHO the busa has a bigger reputation that it maybe deserves these days. The more modern run of litre sportsbike engines are churning out similar BHP
and are a lot less hassle to install in terms of dry sumps and space. Sure they're a little down on torque but I'd live with that - I
never had an issue with my R1 Indy.
You have to bear in mind the original James Whiting Caterham Fireblades were extremely quick even with the relatively lowly 130bhp of the engine they
used. My mate runs the same blade engine in his S2 Lotus 7 and it was almost as quick as my R1 indy which had considerably more grunt from the
engine.
If I was looking at putting a bike engine into my Westy (and I might be  ) then I'd probably looking at either the Aprilia RSV-4 or BMW
S1000RR. I'm not sure how these engines would adapt to a car application, but they're light, compact and powerful units.
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maccmike
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 08:51 AM |
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I know someone who had a brand new from bmw, s1000rr, dont do it. He sold it after only months due to limp home modes, a simple thing like a blown
bulb causes it too. I suspect for a locost it would be far more trouble than its worth getting it wired up. Cant mess with kwackys.
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scootz
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 09:04 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by maccmike
I know someone who had a brand new from bmw, s1000rr, dont do it. He sold it after only months due to limp home modes, a simple thing like a blown
bulb causes it too. I suspect for a locost it would be far more trouble than its worth getting it wired up. Cant mess with kwackys.
If you're spending S1000RR type-money, then you'd be daft not to ditch the standard ECU and stick on an Omex, DTA, etc.
It's Evolution Baby!
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PAUL FISHER
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 10:05 AM |
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If I had your caterham, I would keep it car engined, just upgrade to a 1.8 vvc motor and a 6 speed caterham box, with a bit on head work your up to
200bhp, you will also be keeping the car more authentic, which will increase its value and could be easier to sell on.
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phelpsa
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 11:47 AM |
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On the hills bigger is better, and on the road I would think it is the same. 1600 hayabusa from Extreme engines is the engine to have in your seven at
the moment (assuming you have the best part of 20 grand to spend).
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 11:59 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by PAUL FISHER
If I had your caterham, I would keep it car engined, just upgrade to a 1.8 vvc motor and a 6 speed caterham box, with a bit on head work your up to
200bhp, you will also be keeping the car more authentic, which will increase its value and could be easier to sell on.
+1, but if youre intent on a Bike Engine, i would personally go for something cheaper and more available. Older bikes such as the CBR1000F, GSF1200
Bandit, and GSX1400 delivered more than enough power and torque and would be cheaper to buy parts for / repair. On the plus side, there are also lots
of people that have performance modified these engines before, so theres plenty of information out there too. The downside of course, is the sump /
oil pickup issues that seem to be experienced in BEC's.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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probablyleon
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 01:32 PM |
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Drove my R1 fury for the first time yesterday and was genuinely shocked, I can't imagine wanting anything quicker. Compared to the Honda
Blackbird the R1 replaced, it seems to have much more torque, although that had an open sausage filter and the R1 has the standard airbox.
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OX
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 03:23 PM |
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If you're going to have a passenger with you for most of the drives out then you might want the bigger engine . My old MK R1 was great with just
me in it but when another fatty jumps in it doesn't half make a difference . I could still tell the difference when i had a passenger in the MK
Busa but it was still slightly quicker than just my brother in his MK R1 .
Is it worth the extra 3k ? Yes and NO . Yes if you have a brother with an MK R1 and no when your conrod makes an appearance through the side of the
engine . 
I would personally stay away from these engines CBR1000F, GSF1200 Bandit, and GSX1400 . They haven't got the rev range like the GSXR ,ZX and R1
and if you start tuning them it will effect reliability
[Edited on 27/8/12 by OX]
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Nick DV
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 04:17 PM |
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quote:
.................... and no when your conrod makes an appearance through the side of the engine .
And for what reason did that happen?
Cheers, Nick
"The force will be with you, always!"
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 04:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by OX
I would personally stay away from these engines CBR1000F, GSF1200 Bandit, and GSX1400 . They haven't got the rev range like the GSXR ,ZX and R1
and if you start tuning them it will effect reliability
[Edited on 27/8/12 by OX]
Fair comment, and dependent on driving style. Im not keen on high revving engines all the time, so would be ok for me.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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phelpsa
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 04:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by OX
If you're going to have a passenger with you for most of the drives out then you might want the bigger engine . My old MK R1 was great with just
me in it but when another fatty jumps in it doesn't half make a difference . I could still tell the difference when i had a passenger in the MK
Busa but it was still slightly quicker than just my brother in his MK R1 .
Is it worth the extra 3k ? Yes and NO . Yes if you have a brother with an MK R1 and no when your conrod makes an appearance through the side of the
engine .
I would personally stay away from these engines CBR1000F, GSF1200 Bandit, and GSX1400 . They haven't got the rev range like the GSXR ,ZX and R1
and if you start tuning them it will effect reliability
[Edited on 27/8/12 by OX]
Bandit engine is doing just fine in mine, 136bhp@9k at the wheels and a torque curve a V8 would be proud of. Quicker than busa engined equivalents on
all but the longest straights and gearing that is much better suited to cars. Don't dismiss the older engines, they still have their place and
are much less highly strung.
Also no need for a dry sump (running the stickiest slicks known to man and no problems *touch wood*).
[Edited on 27-8-12 by phelpsa]
[Edited on 27-8-12 by phelpsa]
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OX
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 05:17 PM |
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Nice one phelpsa, but your's is tuned and you use it for what? 60 seconds at a time ..woohoo . Standard 98 bhp in a car no matter how much
weight you could lose from it would suck big time . Plus it's air/oil cooled which isn't the best. Great stunt bikes and nice reliable
engines and i could service the engine blind folded but for the money you'd spend tuning one then i'd rather buy gsxr or r1 for 1k with a
standard 150 bhp :-)
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OX
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 05:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick DV
quote:
.................... and no when your conrod makes an appearance through the side of the engine .
And for what reason did that happen?
Cheers, Nick
Big end bolt snapped 8 laps into a track day at Anglesey
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Description
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warped piston
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Also broke a bailey morris prop shaft but i put that down to constant abuse :-)
[Edited on 27/8/12 by OX]
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phelpsa
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 05:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by OX
Nice one phelpsa, but your's is tuned and you use it for what? 60 seconds at a time ..woohoo . Standard 98 bhp in a car no matter how much
weight you could lose from it would suck big time . Plus it's air/oil cooled which isn't the best. Great stunt bikes and nice reliable
engines and i could service the engine blind folded but for the money you'd spend tuning one then i'd rather buy gsxr or r1 for 1k with a
standard 150 bhp :-)
It gets warmed up, thrashed for 60 seconds, cooled down. Repeat up to 12 times a day for 30 days a year. It isn't an easy life! It is tuned, but
you could have a similar spec engine for under £1500.
I'm not saying it's the best engine for the job as standard, but with a little work it is certainly better for the application than a lot
of the 1000cc engines.
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 27/8/12 at 06:37 PM |
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Ok I think I'm in a good position to comment here as I've done all the big bike engines, turbo them and had zetec pinto cvh and now k
series, so here goes
The zzr 14000 was a great engine and compared to the zx10 it was heaps ahead in power and torque just easier to drive and still a screamer, the zx10
you had to keep revs up at peak to get it optimum on track the 14 was lazier and didn't have to work as hard, both had diff sumps issues the zx
had billet and was fine on 888's the zx10 STD sump and with slicks still fine,
When turbo the cars where great but a bit hair stiffer to drive and I would say could drive the STD engine faster and mo confident overall,
The blackbird and zx12 plenty of punch and if I was going bec again bang for buck I would go zx12 as as much power nearly as the zx14 but half the
price, the bird was the best engine on the road seem to suit the ar better hydraulic clutch and even power and good gear ratio but not as
powerfull,
K series is by far my best sec I have had and on the road is superb plenty of punch and cruises nice,
On track it's as near or as close to the bike engine cars as I have had,
Last time out it has more power on the straight just a little slower out the corners than the bec poss weight, but more liable I would say, but that
can depend on many things of course,
If I ws you I would upgrade your current engine to 1.8 port the head and as Paul said near 200 bhp and will add value,
For now I would change that gearbox to a cater ham 6 speed the ar will drive so much better trust me I know, if you are ever in my neck of the woods
come try as it will make you smile,Daniel ,
But if I was going bec as said the zx12 for me bang for buck I recon is great,
Good luck Sean
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