Norfolkluegojnr
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| posted on 21/7/14 at 03:43 PM |
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Xflow Ignition - few questions please
afternoon Gents,
I'm working on getting to the bottom of my running issues with the Gemini, and I have a sneaky suspicion the problem is electrical.
Just to recap if you've not seen my other threads, i'm running a 1600 XFlow, with twin 40 dellortos, and Lumenition ignition. The car
idles well, but and revs ok on the drive not under load, but if its driven, it seems ok for the first 20 yeards or so then it sounds like its running
on two cylinders, then struggles and utlimately will die.
Could be a fuelling issue, but I want to rule out any ignition problems before spending any cash on the carbs.
So:
What compression should I be looking for (ish)? or just equal across all cylinders?
whats the best way to check a coil for correct operation? or is it a swap job?
Same for Lumenition? i suspect this is to check the timing is advancing?
What's the correct timing for a Xflow?
Best way to find TDC? Haven't needed to time an engine for a long time!
Is it a standard Dizzy cap thats used? Worth changing?
Assuming the above is all correct, timing advancing etc, then it would appear I have a fuelling problem yes?
Thanks as always. Starting to consider binning the crossflow and going Zetec straight away, but I'd like some running this summer!
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teegray19
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| posted on 21/7/14 at 04:14 PM |
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What compression should I be looking for (ish)? or just equal across all cylinders?
haynes manual, if you haven't got one i could hunt it out for you
whats the best way to check a coil for correct operation? or is it a swap job?
take one spark plug and take the main feed to the top of the dizzy, insert the spark plug in there, ground the spark plug by putting it on the chassis
and you should get a very bright spark, better way is to take all the plugs out and do each lead individually, this rules out broken leads of a dizzy
problem.
Same for Lumenition? i suspect this is to check the timing is advancing?
i didn't run lumenition so can't comment, you should be able to find all the wiring information online.
What's the correct timing for a Xflow?
10DEG BTDC at idle with the vac advance off the dizzy and plugged
Best way to find TDC? Haven't needed to time an engine for a long time!
you will need to take your rocker cover off and look for the intake valve opening on cylinder one.... double check this with the haynes manual tho! if
its running at the moment and you turn the engine by hand (bolt on the front of the engine) that will confirm it for you
Is it a standard Dizzy cap thats used? Worth changing?
id just leave it unless the internal contacts look very very poor, some contact cleaner or very fine emery roll on the tip of the rotor wouldn't
go a miss, don't go crazy tho!
after all of that..... i bet my bottom dollar its over fuelling, rather than electrical if its running ok on idle. unless the timing is miles out...
as you said! cheers.
Built Formular 27 with 1600cc crossflow, 1700cc 0 miles crossflow, Kawasaki ZZR1100
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snapper
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| posted on 21/7/14 at 04:55 PM |
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There is a TDC mark on the pulley
Take spark plug out, turn crank so piston is near the top
Put screwdriver down plug hole, find point driver goes down
Mark pully
Turn crank othe way so screwdriver goes up then down
Mark pulley
TDC is in the middle of 2 marked points
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 21/7/14 at 07:17 PM |
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Had nothing but trouble with Lumenition on my GTM , converted back to points and condenser , problems all gone. Best way to find TDC ? Do you mean on
compression stroke? Putting you thumb over no 1plug hole while turning the crank using a spanner on the crank pulley bolt until you feel pressure
building up , carry on turning until the TDC mark on the pulley is aligned, should be close enough to time the engine.
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Norfolkluegojnr
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 07:43 AM |
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Thanks guys,
Hopefully I'll get a day this weekend to rule out anything electrical, but interesting points on Lumenition. I might try and pick up a cheap
megajolt if it keeps playing up. At least I know what I'm looking at there!
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Norfolkluegojnr
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 12:05 PM |
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Can anyone answer the dizzy cap question?
Is it worth changing or is it not an item that can wear out?
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 04:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Norfolkluegojnr
Can anyone answer the dizzy cap question?
Is it worth changing or is it not an item that can wear out?
Definitely work changing the dizzy cap, sometimes these things misbehave only when under load, so just checking for a spark won't always show up
a fault
Change the rotor arm too.
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Norfolkluegojnr
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 09:13 PM |
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Ok, small update.
Fed the coil lead to a plug and earthed to chassis. Got a spark, but far from mega bright. Worth changing the coil?
Secondly, popped dizzy cap off, and correct me if I'm wrong but this is normal internals? No sign of Lumenition stuff?
It's also an Aldon dizzy. I presume that's a good thing? Correct ignition curve for the state of tune?
Feeling more confused now.....
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 09:42 PM |
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That just a standard dizzy with standard points and condenser.
Looks like its been bodged slightly as the blue crimp is not standard.
If I was you I would replace the points, condenser, cap and rotor arm (whole lot £20)
Then see how it runs, set timing at 32deg at 4000rpm as a good starting point.
As you said no sign of electronic ignition so expect the advance curve to be stock too (not a problem, engine will still run fine just may not
optimum)
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Norfolkluegojnr
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 09:48 PM |
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Thanks - though I was going mad! Definitely has a Lumenition box of tricks (little silver solid state thing) perhaps previous owner couldn't get
it working right and reverted back to the standard dizzy.
Is it worth changing the coil as well? Or is that a waste of dosh?
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 22/7/14 at 10:48 PM |
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Yep your probably right - ignition box may have failed so owner prob just reverted to points.
For what it costs a new coil mite be a good plan, avoid cheap eBay jobs, buy a genuine Lucas coil, standard 12v (non-ballast or non-electronic points
type)
It is worth investing in megajolt if you plan one keeping the car, the dizzy is then no longer required (leave it in place to plug hole)
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 23/7/14 at 06:41 PM |
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That is a Lucas distributor ,parts are easily available but the points setting will be different from Fomoco or Motorcraft distributors . Lucas
points are set to 0.015 " rather the the Motorcraft 0.025"
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Norfolkluegojnr
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| posted on 23/7/14 at 06:59 PM |
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Thanks rusty! Parts on order :-)
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philfingers
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| posted on 27/7/14 at 06:13 AM |
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The dizzy cap, if you're using a stock one can be replaced with one from a Sherpa van. Sorry don't know part number but it has right
angled ht lead exits to fit under the carb easier. What camare you using? If it's Kent 234/244 etc then the Aldon dizzy will be a 103fxys. All
of which is irrelevant really. It will start /run fine with a stock dizzy, points and coil. As someone else said maybe not be optimum for your cam.
Non vac advance dizzy (which I'd expect of an aldon one) should be around 14 deg adv when ticking over. Or wind it over by hand with plugs
connected to ht leads but plugs out and on the rocker cover. You want to see a spark on no 1 about 14 deg before the TDC marker. Keep going and make
sure the rest of the plugs spark in the correct order. Will be in the manual if your not sure. But I guess this is right as it's
running/starting but not under load. This issue could be down to plugs, leads or coil. As someone else stated its quite possible to have a spark on
the rocker cover but to have no spark under compression.
Don't believe the hype with mega jolt/luminition etc. a properly set up stock system of points condensor will give you good service, even with a
well tuned engine. Replace the points every 2-4k miles (which could be 2-4 years!) and it will be fine
So check/replace coil, plugs, leads, cap, points and condensor. If you know some one with a similar spec car you can swap bits over to find the
issue then that's locost :-)
The true home of cars born under the Sylva name - http://jpsc.org.uk/forum
STM Phoenix R1
Sold-Sylva Striker 1300xf, 40s etc
Sold-Sylva Phoenix, 1300xf, BVH, 234cam, 2xDCOE 40s, live axle - 'old school', rally car and a few bikes
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JMW
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| posted on 27/7/14 at 07:45 AM |
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Right-angled distributor cap
As Philfingers says, often used on x-flows, I think you can get them from Burtons and other Ford tuners.
But if you want to go to motor factors the partno info that I have is:
Lucas DDB194, Intermotor 44730 used on Rover 1.7/2.0 Ital, 1.7 Marina, LeylandDaf 1.7/2.0 Sherpa van
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philfingers
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| posted on 27/7/14 at 08:09 AM |
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About £6 from Halfords with Trade card last time I bought one. Maybe £10-11 retail
The true home of cars born under the Sylva name - http://jpsc.org.uk/forum
STM Phoenix R1
Sold-Sylva Striker 1300xf, 40s etc
Sold-Sylva Phoenix, 1300xf, BVH, 234cam, 2xDCOE 40s, live axle - 'old school', rally car and a few bikes
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britishtrident
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| posted on 27/7/14 at 10:43 AM |
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Those are the wrong points and condenser for that model of distributer, the distributer is a Lucas series 43d the points and condenser are for the
older series 25d which was used pre 1970.
The points condenser and low tension lead should have clip on fittings it is important to get the correct parts, the clip on low tension lead comes
with the condenser.
[Edited on 27/7/14 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 27/7/14 at 11:46 AM |
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EBay link to correct parts for this dizzie ebay item
Note rotor arm fitted is also wrong.type.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 27/7/14 at 06:49 PM |
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Link to photo showing how it should look, this is showing a 1979 MGB dizzie, which is very similar. note the contact breaker points have a clip on
fixing for the combined (orange) condensor wire and the (black) low tension power wire.
Note when fitting the Black power wire always fitted to the top otherwise it shorts on the base plate.
Also note the rotor arm conductor shape is different.
Link to web page giving more info
[Edited on 27/7/14 by britishtrident]
[Edited on 27/7/14 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Norfolkluegojnr
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| posted on 27/7/14 at 07:46 PM |
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Thanks BT
I'm amazed you can tell that from that poor quality pic!
Any idea what rotor arm I need?
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philfingers
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| posted on 27/7/14 at 07:58 PM |
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1980 Ford Escort 1600 with a Lucas dizzy should be enough info
The true home of cars born under the Sylva name - http://jpsc.org.uk/forum
STM Phoenix R1
Sold-Sylva Striker 1300xf, 40s etc
Sold-Sylva Phoenix, 1300xf, BVH, 234cam, 2xDCOE 40s, live axle - 'old school', rally car and a few bikes
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Norfolkluegojnr
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| posted on 30/7/14 at 07:00 PM |
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Ok a long update after a long day on Saturday.
Timing - was set to 10 btdc idling, and 36 at 4000rpm. It did seem to be jumping around a little, but more likely my eyes than the timing.
Valves - all fine bar one or two that were a little tight. All now adjusted.
Points - fairly well worn, but still at correct gap. Cleaned and replaced, set to correct gap again.
Leads - all replaced
Coil - replaced with known good item. Coil main feed replaced as voltage wasn't great.
I couldn't get the points and cap in time, so I will replace these when they arrive this week.
Total sum of all this? Bugger all! Still exactly the same issue, sounds awful, runs just as bad. Sounds like it's only running on two half the
time, strong fuel smell too.
So carbs then?
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philfingers
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| posted on 30/7/14 at 07:19 PM |
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Could be points then
Right did you do a compression test?
180-200psi would be healthy and good indication of mechanical integrity
You say running on 2. Do the spit test!
Spit on your finger and touch the exhaust headers. Thus will give you an idea which are failing. Or you could use an infrared thermometer. These are a
really useful tool got diagnostics too
I'd wait until I'd changed the points tho
The true home of cars born under the Sylva name - http://jpsc.org.uk/forum
STM Phoenix R1
Sold-Sylva Striker 1300xf, 40s etc
Sold-Sylva Phoenix, 1300xf, BVH, 234cam, 2xDCOE 40s, live axle - 'old school', rally car and a few bikes
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teegray19
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| posted on 30/7/14 at 07:46 PM |
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Sounds mega rich too!
Built Formular 27 with 1600cc crossflow, 1700cc 0 miles crossflow, Kawasaki ZZR1100
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Norfolkluegojnr
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| posted on 30/7/14 at 07:52 PM |
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Compression was 150psi on 1 2 & 4, and 125psi on 3. This is WOT, cold.
Going to change the HG at the weekend. I'll try the spit test tomorrow!
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