aschn
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| posted on 31/10/07 at 10:46 PM |
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A (new member) Introduction - Please Help
Hello all.
My name is Andy, and I am from the US. I have always had a dream of building my own car from the ground up. Over a year ago I saw the Atom on the
show "Top Gear" and fell in love with its simplicity. I have been reading this forum for some time now, and finally decided to really
start researching for my own project. Seems most of you crowd are doing just what I want to, and I love all your designs - they fascinate me. I
understand now that most of my fellow Americans don't do this kind of thing - or at least not to this caliber. Recently though, I ran across
Steve Graber's site - and let me say he has been quite an inspiration. (oh, and Steve, don't worry about what those vette guys say - your
car is so much cooler and better on so many levels.) I really admire his and others workmanship - especially with all the bodywork. I would just like
to start out with a very basic, simple, and light car - that I can drive on the road, for as cheap as possible, and maybe add things in the later
years after it had been completed. (read: no bodywork for now)
Starred (*) Paragraphs may be skipped, if you would like to get straight to the real questions of this thread.
Bracketed ([]) sentences are a wrap up of the paragraph, if you don't like to read.
*Bio - [I am very mechanically inclined], and have had several successful projects. I am interested in all things innovative, so I love technology. I
am also interested in cars, but my interest in cars is different than my peers. Over the years I have designed and built various basic hovercrafts,
modded iPods, fixed dozens of computers, built a couple computers, built a video projector, built a replica Gandalf staff, rebuilt mopeds, fixed
tractors, helped turbo a friends car, put together go-carts, rebuilt small lawnmower engines, swapped the engine in an old Mercedes diesel - as well
as going through every other system, getting that running - then having to swap in a new transmission. The reason I wanted an old diesel Mercedes was
originally to make it run on used cooking oil - which I did. I designed and fabricated my own two-tank system, which worked well. Unfortunately - I do
not have a source for free oil anymore, but I still love my car and hope it lasts forever. As for the car, I have replaced nearly everything under the
hood - new engine, transmission, turbo, fuel pump, lines, wires, belts, hoses, etc. Also I have redone the whole interior, the brakes, the suspension,
the lighting, the electrical, even got the clock working. My car has been the biggest project to date. All the above projects were completed before I
graduated high school. Now I am on to different things - though I still tinker around with my Mercedes. Hopefully the next big thing will be an
awesome mid-engined car, like you guys are building!
*Resource, work area. [I have a proper facility, tools, and help to complete this project.] Quite luckily I started an apprenticeship at a local
machine shop. I am now 5 months (today) into the apprenticeship. Basically, it is a very small shop (only 6 employees, including myself and the
secretary) with big capabilities. I have been doing most of all the welding for the whole shop - and picked up TIG quickly. I hope to use this skill
as a basis for my project. (you either need to weld or have loads of excess cash around to build your own car) We have two CNC mills, two Bridgeport
milling machines, a Devlieg horizontal milling machine, 5 varying sizes of lathes (8"-65" from Le blond and others, two different surface
grinders, and three radial/rotary grinders. We have essentials like 3 different band saws, many pneumatic tools, TIG, MIG, Arc, and Gas welding
setups, belt sander etc. It looks like I will be able to do the work at the shop - on the weekends and after work on the weekdays some days.
Basically I want a small, cheap, but above all light mid-engined sports car which I can drive legally. I love the Atom's looks, I would like
1500lbs or less (as a target weight), 4 wheel disc brakes, Racing style seats w/ harnesses, Good power:weight ratio, and good weight distribution.
Basically, I want just what you all seem to be building.
*I have done loads of preliminary research, but now am getting to the time to make some crucial decisions. A friend told me to make price list, before
I decide to build it - and I think that is a good idea. I am doing that now. [I am looking for your help in making these following decisions:]
1. I have friend who is willing to give me an old Corvair engine/transaxle, which is complete - but in pieces and needs a rebuild. If you are not
familiar- the Corvair was Chevy's answer to the VW Bug, it was a small rear-engined car, which had an air cooled flat 6. Would this even work
for what I want to do? I read the weight is about 230lbs. but it did not say whether that was with or without the trans axle/transmission assembly. It
only puts out around 100 horsepower.
2. Or, I could do something like Steve did - find an MR2 which had been hit or something, that was running. Then I could gut it, use the drive train
and associated parts I needed. The problem with this is where to put an extra car at the moment - but I may be able to work something out. How would
the weight work out?
3. I have a friend who just deals in the tuning of Honda engines. I could use a Honda engine and tranny, and make it work for the rear of the car?
Maybe this would be more trouble than it is worth.
Those are the major Drive train decisions. I also have these questions for you.
Designing the Chassis and Suspension - Most people are using 4130 steel tubing of some sort? What wall thicknesses, close to .092"? I need to
learn some type of CAD to help me in this. Will Sketchup work for what I am doing - or do I need a real CAD program? Also I will be continuing my
research with Kiminis list of books.
Will it be too tedious to TIG weld the whole frame? It is the best type of welding except that it takes some more time than MIG, and on the plus side,
I am most comfortable with it.
In the suspension design, I will have to figure what type of coil-overs I need to use - as for brands what are you using? Koni, Bilstein?
What is wrong with designing a car to look like the Atom? just that it is not original to copy? I want my own design, but I do like the looks of the
Atom.
Finally, What would you do differently if you had to do it over again? Give this grasshopper some good advice 
I am hoping that this forum will become a valuable resource for me, and that I can pull ideas and suggestions from it. Maybe someday I will be able to
help someone else out on this forum. Already, it has proved to be quite good reading - and has helped shape my views for my own car.
I would appreciate any help you could lend. Thanks
-Andy
PS - If you read all that, I commend you!
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blakep82
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| posted on 31/10/07 at 10:51 PM |
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Nitram38 on here is building something that looks like the atom. check out his photo archive
i didn't read the whole message 
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/photos.php?action=gal&user=nitram38&folder=MotaLeira
[Edited on 31/10/07 by blakep82]
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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russbost
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| posted on 31/10/07 at 11:03 PM |
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Hi & welcome. I'm sure you'll get all sorts of suggestions but bangs per buck you can't beat a bike engine. Re the MR2 as a
donor, it's an excellent donor which I use for my cars, you can strip out the Toyota diff & use it with the bike engine & gearbox very
easily as you have fabricating facilities. I recently stripped an MR2 in little over a day,so it doesn't need to clutter the place up - it takes
very little room once stripped. You can obviously use the whole Toyota drivetrain if you wish they are good engines & not too heavy, they put out
124BHP upwards depending on what you go for.
The tubing we're all using is ERW (electric resistance welded) 25mm square with a 1.5mm wall - 16 gauge.
You don't need CAD & if you don't already use it you could spend a year learning One major problem with CAD is that it's very
difficult to model the engine/gearbox & similar parts if you don't already have CAD files for them. I find it easier to visualise stuff in
my head & then play around with the ideas with a few bits of tube etc.
Someone like Protech or Gaz can supply virtually any size & type of shox & they are readily adjustable, you'll obviously need to work
out likely spring rates, but springs aren't expensive to experiment with.
Good luck with your project!
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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JoelP
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| posted on 31/10/07 at 11:05 PM |
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must say (after the obvious welcome), that you must have some scottish blood in you, if you are trying to run on cooking oil even given the nice low
fuel prices in the US Its 4 times as much here!
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keithice
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| posted on 31/10/07 at 11:44 PM |
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aschn, I did read all you posted and thats a pretty impressive list of skills... If your after a mid engine car... a suggestion would be to buy a
front wheel drive car and use the complete engine-transmission-suspension-hubs complete but lock the steering and bolt it behind you onto the
chassis... leaving you to build the steering and suspension at the front... I have bought a rolling chassis of a car called an AEON.. this is
effectively what has been done in my car.. my car is running the ford mondeo V6 2.4 litre (originally designede by mazda I've been told). Tuned
and chipped it's good for 200bhp, several other cars are using the 1.8 turbo VAG engine (Volkswagen Auto Group..... VW, AUDI, Seat..etc..) which
can start out in standard 180 ish bhp, but chipped, re-turbo'ed and tuned can give 300 to 350 bhp. (I've been informed). One AEON owner
regularly on here is Razman.. But if you want a look at what has been done pop a look at www.aeonownersclub.com ther are quite a few pictures to see
what I'm on about...
p.s. I use "foo" on that forum (to avoid confusion with another keith)
p.p.s. Welcome by the way...
Smile and wave boys.... Smile and wave....
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aschn
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| posted on 1/11/07 at 01:16 AM |
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Thanks to all of you for the warm welcome.
I have been looking through pages like the Meerkat, Kimini, La Bala, and all the wonderful designs here for inspiration. All these cars are amazing,
and just what I am looking to build. Thanks for the links.
Maybe a MR2 donor is going to be the easiest way - otherwise I'll have to do things part by part - and that will get expensive. Does anyone know
what an MR2 engine weighs? would it be easy enough to turbocharge and MR2? I guess I will start research on that.
Re : Tubing - I can order through the shop I work at, I was thinking square tube for the lower section - to make it easy to attach the flooring, and
round tube on the rest - for aesthetics. Most people use what diameter round?
Thanks for the tip on CAD, I hope to learn someday - maybe for this build I can rely on drawings and balsa models.
does anyone have any required reading for me, other than what is listed on Kimini's site? I have quite a bit to learn - how did everyone go
about engineering a suspension without bump-steer?
Thanks for the replies, and any help is appreciated (as always)
-Andy
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Fred W B
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| posted on 1/11/07 at 05:52 AM |
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Welcome from me too, and nice first post introduction.
Seems you have the ideal background and current resources to make a success of your project, come on in and join the fun.
Reading what you want to build, I also though of Nitram's and cloudy's cars. Sure you are checking them and other past posts out. I also
like the look of the car below, can't remember what it's called but somebody will. Its made in America somewhere. Not a middy, but it could
be, with a bike engine?
Cheers
Fred W B
 
tttt
[Edited on 1/11/07 by Fred W B]
You can do it quickly. You can do it cheap. You can do it right. – Pick any two.
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Delinquent
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| posted on 1/11/07 at 09:17 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Fred W B
I also like the look of the car below, can't remember what it's called but somebody will. Its made in America somewhere. Not a middy, but it
could be, with a bike engine?
Cheers
Fred W B
tttt
It's a Twintech
http://twintechcars.com/
[Edited on 1/11/07 by Delinquent]
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02GF74
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| posted on 1/11/07 at 09:50 AM |
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hello & welcome.
anyone who is capable of building an "gandalf staff" is more than qualified to build their own car.
From you list of skills and resources, you should be able to do whatever you want, what you need to decide is what this is.
I don't think there are any issue is ripping off someone else's design, unless you are Maclaren, providing you don;t try to sell it on as
the original - you may need to look into the legal side a bit more since I don;t know.
there is also MEV - another atom lopok alike and if you are going that way, then round tubes bent would look better.
Theere are plans out there for loightweight cars, the RC book plus there is plans for mid-engined cars.
think what you want to do with the car and how long you plan to keep it. Thiis will decoide if you will be happy with a 100 bhp engine or want
something more modern - lighter with more poke. There shouldd be loads of japanese FWD cars that can provide engine, I don;t know about gearbox but
pretty sure there are kits that drop eninge + box into the back. Mid/rear/bike engined cars aren't my bag but ask on here and there will be
folks that will know the answers.
An atom like car
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Fred W B
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| posted on 1/11/07 at 11:17 AM |
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As an aside, check one of the credits on the twintech site
quote:
Jay Novak - Engineering
as mentioned in the "RC height" thread currently on the go (on the boil?).
Cheers
Fred W B
You can do it quickly. You can do it cheap. You can do it right. – Pick any two.
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Alan B
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| posted on 1/11/07 at 12:06 PM |
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Welcome, and thanks for the Meerkat mention. The Meerkat is on hold right now while I fit in another project......it is Atomish, as in curved tube
exo-skeleton, and Honda engined....oh and a 3-seater Mc F1 style.......it's about time I gave it some webspace....
[img][/img]
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kb58
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| posted on 1/11/07 at 01:13 PM |
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If possible, try to get a ride in a real Atom. There have been a few articles about what they're like to live with, and contained comments like,
"not as great as we thought", or, "pretty nice, but...".
Just recently someone posted that due to the open frame, he got hit right in the nuts by a rock kicked up by the tire. Any car with a line-of-sight
view of the where the front tire touches the road is very unsafe IMHO - unless you plan to wear a full-face helmet... and that's still not going
to protect your family jewels!
Don't fall in love with a car you don't really know and haven't driven. Think of it like moving in with Pam Anderson (or whoever.)
They might be really hot, but is the baggage enought that you end up not wanting to be around them?
Let the car speak for itself - get a ride. I know they're showing up at track events. It would be worth a few hundred dollars to learn, now,
whether you can live with the thing.
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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speedyxjs
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| posted on 1/11/07 at 02:40 PM |
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WOW that Twintech is a nice looking car
How long can i resist the temptation to drop a V8 in?
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aschn
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| posted on 1/11/07 at 11:08 PM |
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Thanks for the encouragement.
I will be sure to look at Nitrim's and Cloudy's cars - though I think I may have seen them. Ill recheck.
re: Gandalf staff - you should see it! I carved it out of a tree by hand, it is perfect... I was very happy.
I want the car to be light, and look good - but I also need to do it as cheaply as I can. Hopefully I will be able to find a lot of used parts - and
parts from junkyards.
Alan - looks good! I like the meerkat a lot too. Why a three seater though?
Kb58 - Thanks for the good advice. It does make most sense to try before committing. Unfortunately I highly doubt I will be able to ride or drive an
Atom, I have never even seen one I kinda wanted to go with the Atom style just because it seems lightest - and looks great. What would be lighter? I
would want to make fenders of somesort, wouldn't that keep debris from hitting me? What would be an alternative to an Atom-esque car?
The twintech is very nice looking - is that a carbon fiber hull? It says 50:50 weight distribution... I guess that is due to the engine sitting right
over other front wheels? Very well done though.
So - lets say I go with the MR2 as a donor car. What is the first thing to do, read up as much as possible before starting the design?
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Keith Tanner
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| posted on 1/11/07 at 11:42 PM |
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The Atom looks light, but it's surprisingly large and isn't any lighter than a typical Locost.
Here's a Locost and Atom comparison from Grassroots Motorsports.
As for driving an Atom, there is the Atom Experience touring the US. It's not cheap, but it might be worth doing. Then again, that will only
tell you about the Atom you drive. Like any car, it can be set up badly or set up well. You're stuck with the very low polar moment, but
monkeying with the track and wheelbase might make it more stable in corners than the Atom.
The more reading you can do, the better. Do a lot of sketching. And then start cutting and welding enough to get an idea of how it's all going
to go together.
www.slowcarfast.com
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aschn
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| posted on 2/11/07 at 01:41 AM |
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Keith - Wow, thanks! I didn't know you were a member here - I will be buying the book (as well as a stack of others) soon. I loved the article
- really opens my eyes to whats out there. I just wonder if I can pull this off on the cheap.
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kb58
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| posted on 2/11/07 at 03:29 AM |
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"But the surprise star this particular day had to be Keith Tanner’s Locost."
Good job, Keith! Feel's great to beat a "factory car", doesn't it? I'd sure be curious what you'd think if you
drove my car.
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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sgraber
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| posted on 9/11/07 at 04:22 PM |
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First off HI Andy!
And as we say around here - "welcome to the mad-house".
Looks like you have the skillsets and aptitude to embark on a project like this.
I think the MR2 is a good donor because a lot of details in moving a FWD drive package to the rear have already been solved by Toyota. But quite
honestly they are getting thin on the ground. It may just be a better choice to use the Honda driveline since it seems like you have some local
expertise available to support you with that.
Good luck and remember that since this is an international forum we are here almost 24/7 to answer questions!
Later,
Graber
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Alan B
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| posted on 9/11/07 at 05:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by aschn
Alan - looks good! I like the meerkat a lot too. Why a three seater though?
A few reasons.
Most of the time it will be used by the driver only (as are many cars)....it gives a great central and forward driving position.....and without
passengers a lot of distance for side impact protection..also the right/left hand driving issues don't exist....with one passenger you still
have a full seat load of storage room...and with two passengers you have twice as many people you can scare..
In saying all this I will probably do a two seat version too which will be somewhat narrower and more conventional but using most of the same
suspension, fabbed uprights etc......and then use this new version for the Meerkat too...
Perhaps I should actually finish something before moving on to the next project though...
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aschn
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| posted on 19/11/07 at 08:55 PM |
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I have taken off 2 weeks from the computer to devote to reading. I got several books from the local library - and also bought almost all the books I
want. The rest of which I hope to get for Christmas. I've almost finished the Kimini book - and gotten through most of all the Carrol Smith
books, and the Competition Car Suspension - so I've been busy. The kimini book has helped a lot - and I am excited to have the author right here
to pick his brain.
Steve - thanks for the advice, I will be looking into my source for honda information. Did your comment mean that MR2's are getting hard to
find? I really admire your work - especially all the bodywork.
Alan - that makes sense (the three seater idea) - can you still make it as narrow as you would like?
I'm starting to wonder how much money this is actually going to cost me.
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sgraber
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| posted on 19/11/07 at 09:47 PM |
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Thank you. Yes, the MR2's are becoming more and more rare. I do know there are several in the pick and pull yard here in phoenix but
they're 80's cars and that vintage is now getting harder and harder to find.
I think the Geo Metro, Suzuki Swift would make a great donor for the uprights, steering, brakes and interior bits and then you can buy a motor from
something else (like the Honda) to power it. Or turbocharge the little 3cyl Metro engine and see what it does! You can always swap out to a bigger
engine later if you plan for it.
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Alan B
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 01:50 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by aschn
.....Alan - that makes sense (the three seater idea) - can you still make it as narrow as you would like?.....
Well I guess three people wide is going to dictate some sort of minimum width greater than that of a two-seater...saying that I have not gone for the
minimum possible, rather electing to give the passengers a bit more room...the wheels extend beyond the width of the chassis so although it's
relatively roomy width wise it doesn't look too excessive...well not in my opinion at least...I'll get chance to go narrower on the two
seater version..
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kikiturbo
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 09:18 AM |
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hi andy,
as I am building something similar to what you want, I would just like to add my 2c,...
I also want a ultra light mid engined car, so I decided on a single seater with bike power.. no boodywork (not because I like the ATOM but because I
can not be bothered with bodywork just yet)... and I feel that for a fun car, the full on feeling of an open cockpit is the way to go..
why single seater? because I do not enjoy taking people for rides, and with such light weight car, the eventual passenger doesn't have the full
experience as two people on board chage the power to weight ratio quite a lot.. not to mention that as I tend to drive 99% of the time alone, a single
seater doesn;t have any compromises as to the layout, weight distribution, and driver position...
I complicated my life further by engineering the car from the ground up, which is more enjoyable for me, but means that I have to make my own uprights
etc...
From this experience.... and I just finished the CAD part of the work... still need to weld the bloody thing, I would just reccomend that you save
yourself lots of trouble and go for a engine, gearbox, and most importantly, hub and driveshafts combo from an existing car... this will save you
numerous headaches as to the sourcing of driveshafts etc... Also, Kurt's Kimini book, is well worth a read...
Budget.... well, on mine, and this is a K6 GSXR 1000 powered single seater, with some used parts (1 y/o engine, LSD, and that is about it..) I am
looking at about 10000 euro just in parts, without machining and my time... but that is with fully adjustable shocks...
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aschn
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 06:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by kikiturbo
hi andy,
as I am building something similar to what you want, I would just like to add my 2c,...
I also want a ultra light mid engined car, so I decided on a single seater with bike power.. no boodywork (not because I like the ATOM but because I
can not be bothered with bodywork just yet)... and I feel that for a fun car, the full on feeling of an open cockpit is the way to go..
why single seater? because I do not enjoy taking people for rides, and with such light weight car, the eventual passenger doesn't have the full
experience as two people on board chage the power to weight ratio quite a lot.. not to mention that as I tend to drive 99% of the time alone, a single
seater doesn;t have any compromises as to the layout, weight distribution, and driver position...
I complicated my life further by engineering the car from the ground up, which is more enjoyable for me, but means that I have to make my own uprights
etc...
From this experience.... and I just finished the CAD part of the work... still need to weld the bloody thing, I would just reccomend that you save
yourself lots of trouble and go for a engine, gearbox, and most importantly, hub and driveshafts combo from an existing car... this will save you
numerous headaches as to the sourcing of driveshafts etc... Also, Kurt's Kimini book, is well worth a read...
Budget.... well, on mine, and this is a K6 GSXR 1000 powered single seater, with some used parts (1 y/o engine, LSD, and that is about it..) I am
looking at about 10000 euro just in parts, without machining and my time... but that is with fully adjustable shocks...
Sounds cool. I definitely want a two seater to be able to take people around though. I will also definitely be using parts off of other cars - I just
can't see building my own hubs, and drivetrain. I think I could do it but it would take decades.
I have the Kimini book and have been pouring over it for weeks.
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smart1275gt
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| posted on 25/11/07 at 10:49 AM |
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Sounds like a good project. If you need any AutoCAD services, I teach it and can do anything you like from 2D drawings to 3D modelling.
Hey, I might even consider my own self designed car. I've got a big soft spot for MR2's and love that engine. I used to own a Corolla GT
and they go really well, trouble is the MK1 MR2 is a rare beast and rot like mad and some gearboxes have reverse and 5th gear issues. Best go for an
early Mk2 and take advantage of the 2.0L 158-178bhp engine. The turbo's are sometimes cheaper than the N/A version and boostable from
220-300+bhp.
Good luck.
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