Zx10 engine position
Rosco86 - 1/1/15 at 01:19 PM
I've posted this on my build thread but thought I would pop it in here to
Just been looking at engine position and I'm sort of happy with this current position
Running the engine dead inline it seems to put the output shaft in a good position
If I turn the engine so it's parallel to the outer chassis rail it just skews the output shaft but doesn't improve the position for the
prop
And from what I've read it's better for the flanges to be parallel
In this position the total prop length would be 1460mm but I could move the engine back 50mm if I moved the passenger footwell upright back
I have strung a ling between and it's at an angle from the horizontal of about 4 deg, I take it I will still need a 2 piece prop with a centre
bearing and a slight kink in the centre so the UJ's aren't running straight
My main doubt is the more photos of people builds I look at the more seem to have the engine skewed
If anyone could agree or disagree that would be great!
jossey - 1/1/15 at 01:24 PM
Your right the prop should be slightly off centre upto 5% from the centre bearing is the max.....
Have a look here.
lucklinky
The important thing is that the front and rear final angle is the same angle...
Good
[Edited on 1/1/15 by jossey]
ceebmoj - 1/1/15 at 01:25 PM
I can't really see, but it looks like access to the front exhaust port with the top chassis rail is tight, with the engine in that location.
[Edited on 1/1/15 by ceebmoj]
daniel mason - 1/1/15 at 01:31 PM
Nice work on the chassis!
Rosco86 - 1/1/15 at 02:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jossey
Your right the prop should be slightly off centre upto 5% from the centre bearing is the max.....
Have a look here.
lucklinky
The important thing is that the front and rear final angle is the same angle...
Good
[Edited on 1/1/15 by jossey]
Yeah I had read that thread, problem is the longer the straight extension of the output shaft, the steeper the angle from the centre bearing to the
diff
Rosco86 - 1/1/15 at 02:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
Nice work on the chassis!
Cheers! Had a hand from my dad to!
Rosco86 - 1/1/15 at 03:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
I can't really see, but it looks like access to the front exhaust port with the top chassis rail is tight, with the engine in that location.
[Edited on 1/1/15 by ceebmoj]
That's looking straight at the side
That's looking straight down the axis of the exhaust ports
And that's a ruler coming straight out of the port
Hopefully I might be able to drop the engine down a tad more, just waiting on AB performance to give me some sump dimensions
CosKev3 - 1/1/15 at 03:08 PM
I think you might need to lower it a fair way, unless your going to have your air filter/throttle bodies sticking out of the top of bonnet?
Rosco86 - 1/1/15 at 03:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
I think you might need to lower it a fair way, unless your going to have your air filter/throttle bodies sticking out of the top of bonnet?
Haha yeah think you might be right, does anyone no where a Bec sump normally sits? Below the chassis rails?
OliilO - 1/1/15 at 04:27 PM
The bottom of my fireblade sump (an AB one) is probably level with or very slightly below the chassis rails on my car.
It looks like the output shaft on the zx10r is quite a lot higher up the engine than on the blade engines as I'm sure my prop has less of an
angle on it than your bit of string.
Doctor Derek Doctors - 1/1/15 at 04:28 PM
I would push it forward, having it that far back is going to move your weight distribution even further to the rear. You need the engine further
forward to counteract the weight of the driver (~70-100kg) which is right at the back as well as the diff, there is nothing much in the front.
rick1962uk - 1/1/15 at 05:07 PM
thats about where i got my zzr1100
Rosco86 - 1/1/15 at 05:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OliilO
The bottom of my fireblade sump (an AB one) is probably level with or very slightly below the chassis rails on my car.
It looks like the output shaft on the zx10r is quite a lot higher up the engine than on the blade engines as I'm sure my prop has less of an
angle on it than your bit of string.
Ok thanks, yeah I think you right about the output shaft height!
Rosco86 - 1/1/15 at 06:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
I would push it forward, having it that far back is going to move your weight distribution even further to the rear. You need the engine further
forward to counteract the weight of the driver (~70-100kg) which is right at the back as well as the diff, there is nothing much in the front.
How much further forward do you think? All the way or half way?
Big Macs westfield looks to be in the exact same position, right at the back
Rosco86 - 1/1/15 at 06:29 PM
Cheers for the pics rick, how did you decide on front to back position?
Doctor Derek Doctors - 1/1/15 at 06:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rosco86
quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
I would push it forward, having it that far back is going to move your weight distribution even further to the rear. You need the engine further
forward to counteract the weight of the driver (~70-100kg) which is right at the back as well as the diff, there is nothing much in the front.
How much further forward do you think? All the way or half way?
Big Macs westfield looks to be in the exact same position, right at the back
When I bought my engine (919 Fireblade) from AB performance back in the day I asked Andy Bates if he had any advice about installation and he told me
to put it as close to the front axle line as I could get it as all the cars he was seeing had the engines really far back in the engine bay which was
pushing the weight distribution far to far to the back of the car. The front of my engine is just behind the rear lower wishbone pick-ups, similar to
ricks ZZR1100 in his first picture.
It also makes the prop and gear linkage installation much easier as well.
rick1962uk - 1/1/15 at 07:12 PM
tried to keep it slightly up front but the main reason it is where it is was to have an easy life fitting the exhaust etc and get to the oil filter
and filler spent hours trying to think if i had it right and still overlooked 1 oil cooler bolt thought it was a single but was a double sounds silly
but sooner just unbolt parts that have to take out the engine every time same as clutch it can all be done with engine in so if it goes at a track day
its not a big job
Rosco86 - 1/1/15 at 08:17 PM
Thanks for that, I will have another move around tomorrow then, at lease that's the front to rear position sorted
Just up and down and straight or on the wee left to sort!
Also I will bear in mind about getting to everything on the engine
phelpsa - 3/1/15 at 01:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
When I bought my engine (919 Fireblade) from AB performance back in the day I asked Andy Bates if he had any advice about installation and he told me
to put it as close to the front axle line as I could get it as all the cars he was seeing had the engines really far back in the engine bay which was
pushing the weight distribution far to far to the back of the car.
But the big question is.... is having a rwd weight distribution a bad thing? The further fwd you push the engine the greater the yaw inertia and the
less responsive the car is.
daniel mason - 3/1/15 at 03:18 PM
I agree with Adam. Take a look at Darren Luke's caterhan busa and see where busa lumps fits. I'd be tempted to shorten the passenger
footwell and get it further back!
mark chandler - 3/1/15 at 04:26 PM
I,m seriously considering cutting a lump more out my passenger side and dragging it back into the passenger seat area like a mallock.
I then lose the two piece prop, I can count passenger rides on one hand so only need a seat for class classification.
My car already has a chunk cut out when I made it
Inverted chassis 2 April 2006
I also took the opportunity to grow the driver foot wheel, mine is based upon the chapmans so room for feet is already tight.
rj - 3/1/15 at 07:43 PM
when I was positioning my engine (ZX9R) the angle was dictated by the exhaust manifold, the engine is almost inline with the side top chassis rail,
havn't had any issues with the prop
daniel mason - 3/1/15 at 07:48 PM
That's how mk's are!
Rosco86 - 3/1/15 at 08:10 PM
Cheers for the comments, nice to mix it up a bit lol
How good a driver would you have to be to notice the difference on engine position front to back? Just I'm not going to claim I'm an f1
driver
I've searched google for some Darren Luke caterham pics but only found one, is he a member on here?
Cheers Rj, will bear that in mind
daniel mason - 3/1/15 at 08:17 PM
No he sprints in the l7c and raced a radical pr6. He's awesome!
Basiclally arc build the cradles for caterham hayabusas and if you don't have the shortened passenger footwell you have to cut it out and shorten
it to get the motor in and the caterham is tiny already. Smallest 7 chassis I've driven anyway
OliilO - 3/1/15 at 08:26 PM
My Mac 1 has a shortened passenger footwell meaning the engine is pushed more rearward. Additionally, the engine is parallel with the top chassis rail
too and I've not experienced any prop related dramas.
Rosco86 - 3/1/15 at 08:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
No he sprints in the l7c and raced a radical pr6. He's awesome!
Basiclally arc build the cradles for caterham hayabusas and if you don't have the shortened passenger footwell you have to cut it out and shorten
it to get the motor in and the caterham is tiny already. Smallest 7 chassis I've driven anyway
Would an amateur driver notice the engine position do you think?
Rosco86 - 3/1/15 at 08:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OliilO
My Mac 1 has a shortened passenger footwell meaning the engine is pushed more rearward. Additionally, the engine is parallel with the top chassis rail
too and I've not experienced any prop related dramas.
That's cool to hear, how's it drive if you've got that far, you got any pictures?
kj - 3/1/15 at 08:47 PM
Zx9 sitting back no probs good drive
OliilO - 3/1/15 at 09:06 PM
I can find some pictures over the next couple of days if you want. Seems to handle well, but then again, I'm pretty incompetent so probably
wouldn't be able to detect much difference.
I suspect ultimately, whatever you do, it'll still be highly capable. Remember, if you mount it rearward you get more room for an intercooler
when you turbo it in a few years time...
daniel mason - 3/1/15 at 09:20 PM
You'd probably not notice too much really on road tyres! You'd notice a hell of a lot more from good dampers,correct spring poundage, the
best brakes you can fit under 13" rims, a good geo setup, and. As much weight loss as possible without compromising safety,rigidity!
Oh and decent rubber!
Rosco86 - 4/1/15 at 01:24 PM
Right think im going for right back, im not going to go crazy and put it in the pasenger seat, but ive chopped the upright out so the generator cover
can go back, then one side of the engine mounts can be against the bulk head im thinking, also this makes the prop quite a bit shorter
Also im mounting the engine parrallel to the centreline as it puts the output shaft on centreline
What do you think?
wylliezx9r - 4/1/15 at 02:37 PM
Looks good to me, my only concern is, is the front left corner of the rocker cover going to interfere with the bonnet ?
Also i,ve just been lookin through your earlier pictures, the bike sprocket seems a lot higher than my old zx9r install, can you lower the engine
height at all ?
Rosco86 - 4/1/15 at 03:06 PM
Yeah i think there just high on a zx10, the sump is about an inch below the underside of the chassis, i wanted it flush but dropped it a bit more so
ive got a bit more clearence for the exhaust
The top of the engine is about 140mm above the top chassis rail at the min
As for bonnet clearence, heres a pic, ive not got a bonnet yet, i can move it over a bit more
Cheers for your input!
wylliezx9r - 4/1/15 at 07:59 PM
I would move the engine a tad further in toward the centre line so that you definitely have clearence of the bonnet. Would be a shame to have to cut a
chunk out of the bonnet especially in that area as it can't be hidden by a scoop. Even better beg/borrow/steel a bonnet off somebody for a trial
fit.
Rosco86 - 5/1/15 at 09:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wylliezx9r
I would move the engine a tad further in toward the centre line so that you definitely have clearence of the bonnet. Would be a shame to have to cut a
chunk out of the bonnet especially in that area as it can't be hidden by a scoop. Even better beg/borrow/steel a bonnet off somebody for a trial
fit.
Cheers for that, as I hadn't really thought about the bonnet
Well spoke to AB performance today, real nice chap with some good ideas backed up with some good evidence,
So I've moved it again, haha
Think I've got clearance around everything that I need to have
So Tatley off the haynes forum who lives not to far from me has kindly lent me his body work so I can mock things up
Looking a bit like a car!
There's a bit of clearance over the top, this is saturn body work but I'm holding that the exquinox may be has a bit more
OliilO - 5/1/15 at 09:44 PM
You can't leave us all hanging...
What's the reasoning for moving it to there?
BigMac - 5/1/15 at 11:08 PM
Looking good Roscoe- one point, are you planning on using a standard airbox or something different? Overall position looks good, but there
doesn't seem much space from the throttle bodies to the bonnet... From looking at the pictures, my relatively flat MAC1 box may struggle to get
under that bonnet the way it is, unless you're planning on running a different bonnet or just dropping a filter over the top of the bodies?
jeffw - 6/1/15 at 11:41 AM
The Fury Menace has the engine alongside the driver but both engine and driver where moved to the middle of the chassis
Rosco86 - 6/1/15 at 08:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OliilO
You can't leave us all hanging...
What's the reasoning for moving it to there?
Haha, sorry,
Access to all areas of the engine, to save removing the engine if anything needs replacing
Keeping some weight upfront to help keep some heat in the tyres
Height wise, keep the sump flush with the bottom of the chassis, this means you can run the whole car an inch lower than if the sump was sitting below
by an inch,
I thought this was really good advice and made a lot of sense
On the piss, just seems to fit better for the exhaust and loads are mounted like this so must be ok for the prop
Rosco86 - 6/1/15 at 08:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
The Fury Menace has the engine alongside the driver but both engine and driver where moved to the middle of the chassis
Sounds good but it's a little extreme for me!
Rosco86 - 6/1/15 at 08:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by BigMac
Looking good Roscoe- one point, are you planning on using a standard airbox or something different? Overall position looks good, but there
doesn't seem much space from the throttle bodies to the bonnet... From looking at the pictures, my relatively flat MAC1 box may struggle to get
under that bonnet the way it is, unless you're planning on running a different bonnet or just dropping a filter over the top of the bodies?
I'm not really sure mate, I don't want to drop the engine down as I want the underside flush, and an inch wouldn't solve the problem,
looks like I'm going to have to mod the bonnet with a scoop or just use a filter like you say and let it sit out the top, also I've got to
refit the top injectors,
Rosco86 - 6/1/15 at 09:21 PM
How about one of these?
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/34/viewthread.php?tid=195749
