Ok, here goes. I posted a while back that I was having trouble with flaring brake pipes and someone suggested I post some pics of how Im doing it and to see if anyone can help. Im really fed up now as Ive been in the garage tonight and wasted a load more pipe. This time I took some pics with a mobile to post up and see if anyone can help.
1st pic is brake pipe in clamp, done up real tight.



2nd Pic shows how much pipe sticks out compared to flaring cap thing!



3rd pic is clamp ready to screw down.



4th pic, is clamp screwed all the way down.



5th pic, clamp un screwed, removed and showing flared end



6th pic is pipe removed from clamp showing a rather poor, wonky crap flare



another poor attempt



and another.....



and more.....



and finally one to laugh at......



last one for now



This is what I cut the pipe with



And a small collection of wasted pipe for the bin :-(



This one was ok, but one out of maybe 50? Cant risk it on a long run of pipe



So, the million dollar question, what am I doing wrong? I was at the GBS factory last week and they use an identical tool and they make perfect flares. Is it really a case of practice makes perfect? What I need to do is measure out each of the pipes and then some one fairly local can "teach" me on the remainder of my pipe? Its driving me mad.....sorry for the long post but you know how it goes, have to vent anger some where as SWMBO wouldn't understand!!

Thanks

Andy

[Edited on 19/1/11 by AndyW]

its as much about getting the right amount of pipe through to little or too much will not give the best results. Never used that too type so cant say how much should protrude

I,d say that judging from pics 7 , 8 & 9 that you have too much pipe for the flare tool bit(die) to compress/shape,

I,d suggest that you reduce the amount of pipe as in pics 1 & 2 is less than the die tool, say about half to 3/4 the depth of the die tool.

I might be wrong but the pipes you have flared where,s its ended up "wonky" is cos there,s too much pipe being flared.

Hope you get it sorted.

cheers
andy

Its in the prep of the end of the cut pipe from what i remember.

I had the same problem, and eventually figured out that i needed to rotate the ringing tool about 20-30 times (increasing pressure each time) to let the blade cut rather than chop.
I seem to remember that different gauge pipe swaged differently too.

Not much help, and i can see the anger in the cut ends!!

Good luck.

That first flare you show is'nt that bad, not symmectrical, but I'd think it'd seal ok, difficult to tell without photos from other angles.
The others look a bit like there's been a touch too much pipe protruding from the clamp making it buckle & that the die may not be quite as good as it should be so it doesnt set it off as it should. But I've not used this type of former & not seen you use it so I'm not that sure.
Is there any chance there's been a mix-up between the dies for single & double flares?

I found some copper pipe flared better than others. New stuff seemed much easier to work with and i used the exact same tool.

I also think that the first photo showing finished pipe would seal perfectly.

I also think that you can't spend enough time on the prep.

Did you clean the pipe inside and out with rough scotch pads before flaring? I always make sure the inside is perfect as that often leads to a deformity.

Also, after flared, I lightly sand the bulbuous end with some 1200 grit to make sure of a good seal...

I've got a similar tool but it also had a cutter with mine which had a deburring tool on it. I always deburred inside and out before making flares and had no issues. The amount of pipe protruding should be set as you show, but my version has a small step I believe I would go and look but everything piled up at the mo as I have the builders in.hopefully someone will come along who can get their hands on their tool

some of those might just seal but thats tool makes old fashioned SAE flare for an Escort II or Sierra based Locost you should use a tool that mates DIN (metric) flares.

It always seems to help my flares if i dab a bit of brake fluid onto the pipe end to lube it up a bit before winding the tool in, worth a shot

quote:

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Originally posted by britishtrident
some of those might just seal but thats tool makes old fashioned SAE flare for an Escort II or Sierra based Locost you should use a tool that mates DIN (metric) flares.

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Are you sure you are using the tool in the correct order?

its been a few years since i did mine, same tool.

and i think i remember that you use the dye first and then the cone afterwards, not just the dye on its own

I am also unfamilier with that style of flareing tool

Mine has the odd failure but 85-95% are succsesfull

It is all about preperation,
clean pipe
no bur's inside or out
the right amount of pipe showing out of the fomer (i would say you have way to much showing)

My flring tool also came with some red grease, but ive not alsways used it

quote:

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Originally posted by steve m
the right amount of pipe showing out of the fomer (i would say you have way to much showing)

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quote:

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i think i remember that you use the dye first and then the cone afterwards, not just the dye on its own

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I've got one of those and yes it does need a fair bit of practice but this is what works best for me, here goes...

PUT THE FITTING ON THE PIPE!

Clamp the pipe into the pipe clamp so its flush with the bottom of the V and nip it up, release and turn the pipe 90 degrees and again nip it up, this ensures that the pipe is now straight.

Loosen off the clamp and push it up so that there is the the correct amount above, I've used the depth of the die like you but have also used another off cut of pipe too as the depth with varying success,think this is all about the thickness or quality of the copper more than anything else.

I then have a little Phillips jewellers screwdriver that i slowly turn down the pipe which allows the die to be inserted without binding and being too tight and also making it too tight to get off.

Now use the die for the single flare and should be good, now take off the clamp and put a tiny bit of coppaslip on the back of the flare to help the fitting slip around it while tightening hand tight, nip up a further half turn.

If you needed a double flare don't take it out of the clamp just dont use the die and just go down a little, it doesn't need to bottom out or anything! Again do the coppaslip on the back and hand tight with a further half turn.

Always use a vice to hold the clamp as it just about impossible to do a decent flare holding it by hand, that's what the sticky out bit at the end of the clamp is for.

Don't worry if you get some leaks just turn them about an 8th of a turn until it stops, more often than not the problem is either going down to hard with the double flare or tightening them too much at install. Try and keep all pieces parrallel too with even gaps around the neck if that sort of makes sense!

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Rich

quote:

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PUT THE FITTING ON THE PIPE

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quote:

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Originally posted by flibble
It always seems to help my flares if i dab a bit of brake fluid onto the pipe end to lube it up a bit before winding the tool in, worth a shot

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Just to add my two pennyworth. I have the same tool and the first pic looks OK to me. I cut mone with a pipe cutter first then used a needle file to cvlean out the inside of the pipe before flaring. Certainly had very few failures and you have to use the conical end of the tool to finish off one of the pipe ends. Cannot remember if it was male or female end. Interestingly I bought my kit from Machine Mart a few years ago and it didnt have instructions. Wrote to them and they said that instructions arent part of the kit. How the f*ck are you supposed to use it then. Luckily had borrowed a similar kit WITH INSTRUCTIONS from a mate.

Ive tried several flaring kits, including one similar to yours and failed miserably with most.
My dad has an old kit which is based on the clamp styles ones you see for about £100 on ebay, however knowing my dad I know he would not have paid that much! SO must have been a cheaper version. But it works fine.
However I cant find anything similar on the internet.

I have one of these tools and found it to work best with slightly less than the thickness of the die sticking out, i use a drill bit to de burr the inside of the tube and find a little brake grease on the die helps.
Paul

I've done quite a few along with my Locost and a friend's car and not had any fails using Kunifer, steel and copper pipe. Try a bit of brake grease on the die as you fit it and tighten the end nut nearest the hole with the pipe in first. My pipe cutter has a reamer on the back for cleaning the cut up and I use that quite energetically so the die is an easy fit.




[Edited on 19/1/11 by Peteff]

click me and about 1:25 in

that first one you did looks ok. screw it down into a brake caliper then take it back out again and it should look like it is supposed to.

I could be a div here, but I've currently got the ones I did recently exposed so I went into the garage to have a look. You've used the female (dished) side of the tool to make that fitting. The fitting itself looks good to me, but I'm sure for that type of brake union the other side of the tool should be used so that you have a flat side butting up to it. That's certanly how I did mine - with 100% success I might add. I may just be mis-interpreting the photo mind.

Other than that the first couple of photos don't look like the inside of the pipe was de-burred before forming.

Hope you get it sorted.

Dan

I've just looked again and I'm sure I'm correct. You are using the right flaring bit but definately on the wrong side of the tool. Use it on the flat side and it will work.

quote:

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Originally posted by Davegtst
I found some copper pipe flared better than others. New stuff seemed much easier to work with and i used the exact same tool.

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I agree with Contaminated. When I did mine I used the other side of the clamp first then if you want to double flare then turn over the clamp and go in with the cone.

Regards,
Steve

take a look at http://www.lotuselan.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15759 explains it all and has a extract from the instructions

also found this explaination

How to Use a Flaring Tool
Flaring tools are described as either single or double flare. Both work the same way, but the double makes a stronger, safer flare. The single flare is a one-step operation and forms a flare from a single layer of the tube, while the double first forms a bulged out area in the end of the tube, which is folded over itself to make a double-layered flare during the second step.
The largest part of a flaring tool is the tube clamp. This clamps has several holes, which are marked for the various tube sizes. Loosen the wing nuts to allow the tube clamp to open and insert the tube into the proper-sized hole. Set the small flaring adapter--this is the small disk with the stud protruding from one side of it--upside down beside the end of the tube and adjust the tube to stick out of the clamp the same distance as the thickness of the adapter disk. Tighten the wing nuts securely. If they are loose, the tube will slide in the clamp and ruin the flare.
Attach the flaring screw to the clamp. It attaches by sliding down over the clamp and twisting sideways to hold it in place. The cone on the end of the flaring screw should line up with the end of the tube. Place the protruding end of the adapter disk inside the tube, using brake fluid as a lubricant. Tighten the screw against the back of the disk until the disk is pressed against the sides of the clamp and then back the screw off and remove the adapter disk. Add another drop of brake fluid to the end of the tube and tighten the cone of the flaring screw into the end of the tube until it stops.
Loosen and remove the clamping screw and set it aside. Loosen the wing nuts and remove the tube from the clamp. Examine the flare. It should be uniform and without any cracks.

[Edited on 20/1/11 by jabs]

quote:

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Originally posted by loggyboy
Ive tried several flaring kits, including one similar to yours and failed miserably with most.
My dad has an old kit which is based on the clamp styles ones you see for about £100 on ebay, however knowing my dad I know he would not have paid that much! SO must have been a cheaper version. But it works fine.
However I cant find anything similar on the internet.

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All the above regards reaming, lube, distance through die is right etc but whats causing the poor flare is the tube is slipping through the die, tighten the wing nut nearest the pipe first then tighten the other end then tighten both using a spanner.
The original tool that these cheapo copies ripped off had a lot finer thread on the wing nut pin giving loads more pressure on the tube.
Cheers,
Bob

[Edited on 20/1/11 by splitrivet]

If you have the time to come over to Cambridge this weekend I can show you how to prepare the pipe and do a proper flare using a decent pipe flaring tool that you can borrow . I've been making brake pipes for over 40 years and have never had any problems except once and that was using a tool similar to yours

I used one of those tools on my car and like you I found the quality varies between flares. I notice that the tool wears very quickly and is worn out after a dozen flares. I ended up going to local motor factors with my pre-cut pipes and got them to
make the ends off. Best of luck.

Thanks for all the reply's, I didn't expect to get that many, interesting though how some of the opinions vary from what is "right" and "wrong". All advice is taken on board and as usual I appreciate help. I am taking up an offer from a fellow locoster to be shown "the way"! Hopefully then I can post up some pics of proper pipe flares and a smiley face.

Again, thanks......

Andy

PS I am now short of brake pipe by one long length from master cyl to rear splitter, so if any one has a length going spare, i am again willing to give it a good home....

You have u2u

Lots af variables, but the biggest one is that those tools (in my opinion) are crap!

I have one for flaring pipes "on car" when nothing else is very easy, but a proper "lever action" type or similar is hard to beat and I have never had a mis-flare with one, whereas I have had a lot with those cheap tools

I had a cheepo flare tool and it was very poor . Then bought a better branded one which I now sell (the brand not the flare tool) and it is a lot better, clamps tighter and works much smoother . All about prep, but really most of those pictures would seal ok , at the end of the day the steel fittings squish it into the correct shape anyway . I haven't had any leaks

Hi

I'm a bit of a novice in the brake pipe game but I thought I'd share this post having just replaced all the brake lines on my car.

Here's one of my favourite links on this topic as it seems to cover pretty much everything apart from maybe what tools to use if you want to do Kunifer piping.

That said I was struggling to find a site that mentioned anything about what to do to get above the first bend in the hard piping after the junction box/manifold.

"KS TOOLS Flexi-Head Brake Bleeding Flare Nut Spanner Set" seemed like the best option but then I came across a link for a set of Crows foot spanners. It occurred to me I already had a set which I bought to replace a steering gearbox on my old Jeep.

So a 11mm Crows foot with a 3/8" extension and a stubby 3/8" drive was the final solution. It slots right in between the other unions on the manifold and gets my drive up above the rest of the pipes - plus I get a much better idea of how much torque I'm applying and haven't mauled any of the unions.


Description

For anyone else with inaccessible leaky brake pipe unions I suggest you give this a try.