dhutch
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| posted on 25/1/15 at 05:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
They are basically saying I'd be safer towing my 1000kg rig with a family.hatch back than my 4x4 even tough I'm well inside the 3500kg
weight.
As you say while if you dont load the 4x4 to its max its unlikely to be any worse, you could, and which point while its still going to be stable and
safe if you hit something you would obliterate it.
Daniel
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ste
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| posted on 25/1/15 at 05:51 PM |
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Not a lot of people realise this, but the 750kg max unbraked limit isn't for all cars. First off, the MAM of the unbraked trailer cannot weigh
more than half the MAM of the tow car so if you have a Fiesta then you cannot pull an empty trailer plated at 750kg.
I used to build trailers and not a single customer knew about this so I plated the trailers to suit their cars, most of which I plated at 500kg but
with 750kg running gear.
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Sierra
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| posted on 25/1/15 at 06:26 PM |
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Quick question on your views. Do you think it would be ok/legal if the rear ramps where kept horizontal to fit the car on and strapped down. The
seller of the trailer claims it would be and has done a few times.
Also if I was to purchase a small trailer could the bed be slightly lengthened at the a frame end or does the a frame need to be a certain length?
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 25/1/15 at 07:02 PM |
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Quite possible to get into trouble with an older licence and (my old) rig too. I've been VOSA'd many times, M5 (Taunton), A52 (Grantham),
A17, A1, etc. Normally, a police car comes alongside, pulls me over to the hard shoulder and then escorts me to the VOSA centre. The van then gets a
full mechanical inspection, as does the trailer, everything is weighed, licences checked, etc. The policeman will then start on the car within the
trailer, especially if VOSA tell him that the van is 'OK'. It's all very annoying, and it has meant I've missed a practice
session on a circuit before an event.
There are so many conflicting rules and opinions from VOSA and the police.
Some say the GTW allowance can be shunted around the various units, some not. Some have said the plated weight of the trailer is important, some not,
looking at the actual weight. Some comment on trailer axle weightings (it's a twin), some don't care. All very confusing.
A Sprint Shuttle with a '7' car in it comes out at ca. 1200 Kg, more towards 1500Kg with the F3 car and tyres. It's plated 2000Kg
The Van has been either a 2.9t Transit, a 3.5t Transit or a 3.49t Land Rover (3.49t, 1-Ton, 1967 vintage).
GTW's are 4.3t, 5.5t and 6.5t respectively.
The 2.9t Transit (100 LWB) came very close to the GTW, so I'd always say go 3.5t to be VOSA-safe.
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Fred W B
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| posted on 25/1/15 at 07:05 PM |
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quote:
Do you think it would be ok/legal if the rear ramps where kept horizontal to fit the car on and strapped down
You would have to check into your local regulations on rear overhang length. Not much help I know but when I used to design truck bodies in SA the
rear overhang could not be more than half the wheelbase. For a trailer I would guess the wheel base is considered from the hitch to the centre of the
axles.
Cheers
Fred W B
[Edited on 25/1/15 by Fred W B]
You can do it quickly. You can do it cheap. You can do it right. – Pick any two.
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talkingcars
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| posted on 25/1/15 at 10:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
Quick question on your views. Do you think it would be ok/legal if the rear ramps where kept horizontal to fit the car on and strapped down.
Defiantly legal as long as it is lit correctly i.e. tail lights and side reflectors.
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Charlie_Zetec
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| posted on 26/1/15 at 03:06 PM |
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I've read, re-read and re-re-read the rules for towing a trailer. A simple question, and I'll put all the details I have below, and
perhaps someone can just give me a definitive answer (or answers) so that I can be legal-ish moving forward....
Land Rover Defender 90 - EEC kerb weight of 1,750Kgs (1727Kgs by the book)
Towing Capacity - 3,500Kgs
Licence passed - 2001
According to Gov.uk website I can tow under Section B of my licence as follows;
"Vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) and up to 8 passenger seats with trailer up to 750kg; trailers over 750kg if combined
weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t over 3,500kg and the fully-loaded trailer doesn’t weigh more than the unladen vehicle "
So 3,500Kgs MAM, minus 1,750Kgs of car = 1,750Kgs towable (trailer + contents combined)
As the 1,750Kgs trailer is more than the unladen weight of the car, I would need to reduce this to 1,727Kgs (or lower) of total towing weight.
Therefore I could tow a trailer with any plated weight, assuming that the trailer (plus contents) weighs less than 1,727Kgs and be within the rights
of my licence and the law?
Am I correct in this???
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity!
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daviep
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| posted on 26/1/15 at 04:34 PM |
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No MAM of the Defender is 2400kg leaving you with 1100kgs for your trailer and load.
THIS flow chart from Ifor Williams explains it quite clearly.
Regards
Davie
[Edited on 26/1/15 by daviep]
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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Charlie_Zetec
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| posted on 26/1/15 at 04:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daviep
No MAM of the Defender is 2400kg leaving you with 1100kgs for your trailer and load.
THIS flow chart from Ifor Williams explains it quite clearly.
Regards
Davie
[Edited on 26/1/15 by daviep]
Thanks for the IWT chart - explains it very clearly! According to that, I'd have to be towing a trailer plated at 1,700Kgs or less.
PS - I've checked on RAVE (Land Rover service factory manual) and with Land Rover and they both state 3,500Kg towing capability for a 300TDi
Defender 90. But I have asked for this is writing from them to clarify.
I feel better informed already!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity!
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daviep
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| posted on 26/1/15 at 06:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Zetec
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
No MAM of the Defender is 2400kg leaving you with 1100kgs for your trailer and load.
THIS flow chart from Ifor Williams explains it quite clearly.
Regards
Davie
[Edited on 26/1/15 by daviep]
Thanks for the IWT chart - explains it very clearly! According to that, I'd have to be towing a trailer plated at 1,700Kgs or less.
PS - I've checked on RAVE (Land Rover service factory manual) and with Land Rover and they both state 3,500Kg towing capability for a 300TDi
Defender 90. But I have asked for this is writing from them to clarify.
I feel better informed already!
If towing with a post '97 license the combined MAM of the vehicle and trailer cannot be more than 3500kg, the MAM of a Defender is 2400kg
leaving you with a maximum of 1100kg MAM for the trailer. Your license is the restricting factor not the towing capacity of the vehicle.
If you had a B+E license you could tow a trailer with a MAM of 3500kg
Regards
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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dhutch
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| posted on 27/1/15 at 07:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Oddified....it has to be easier to take the extra test than doing all the arsing around juggling weights to keep
inside the limits.
Not when its a 1-2day course, a few hundred quid, and getting a day of work is like rocking horse poo and another
£100....
However, as I have been doing some more digging for another project, I have also found this page which appears clearer than most.
http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/towing/driving-licences/
Also (in NI)
http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/motoring/buses-lorries-trailers-and-caravans/towing-trailers-or-caravans-with-vehicles-up-to
-3-5-tonnes.htm
Daniel
[Edited on 27/1/2015 by dhutch]
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Sierra
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| posted on 27/1/15 at 07:34 PM |
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That website although very informative doesn't mention anything about the vehicle towing limit in the examples.
Just says vehicle MAM + trailer MAM must = upto 3500kg
In my example using my vehicle I didn't include my vehicle MAM but it's unloaded weight. So mine would be
Vehicle MAM 2100kg
Vehicle unloaded weight 1450kg
Vehicle tow limit 1200kg
So my trailer can be a maximum MAM of 1200kg, correct?
That way it will be vehicle MAM (2100kg +1200kg) trailer MAM =3300kg which is below my max of 3500kg but also trailer is within vehicle tow limit and
below the weight of unloaded vehicle.
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dhutch
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| posted on 27/1/15 at 11:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
That website although very informative doesn't mention anything about the vehicle towing limit in the examples.
The camping&caravaning site has lots of pages, as does the nidirect.gov and direct.gov sites, but obviously keeping within the vehicle limits is
not a leicece requirement. Although I agree it should be included in the flow chart.
quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
So my trailer can be a maximum MAM of 1200kg, correct?
Thats how I would read it, ie, the limit in your case is simply what the tow vehicle is signed off for.
- And in that case a B+E would not help.
Daniel
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Sierra
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| posted on 1/2/15 at 08:35 PM |
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Not sure if anyone will have the answer but will try anyway.
I've got hold of braked trailer which is not plated. What would the police/VOSA do in this case if they pulled me over?
Do they look at the max load of the tyres and take that as the trailer MAM?
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ste
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| posted on 1/2/15 at 10:27 PM |
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VOSA will take you to a weighbridge then have your pants down.
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Sierra
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| posted on 1/2/15 at 10:38 PM |
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Thing is the weight of the trailer, car and tow car will all be within the limits that I'm allowed. Just that the trailer will not be plated so
just wondering if they would take the tyre load or not
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daniel mason
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| posted on 1/2/15 at 10:52 PM |
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Plate the trailer yourself. Make sure your on the right side of the Unladen weight. Deduct this from the mam you can tow on your license with your tow
car and make sure your race car is not above the loading figure!
Eg;
Tow car mam 2000kg
Max towing capacity 1500kg
Trailer Unladen ( allow some tolerance) 500kg
Loading capacity 900kg
Trailer mam 1400kg
So your total mam 3400kg which is fine
And the trailer plus load less than max towing capacity of car!
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dhutch
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| posted on 1/2/15 at 11:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem...I've been VOSA'd many times...
...It's all very annoying, and it has meant I've missed a practice session on a circuit before an event.....
There are so many conflicting rules and opinions from VOSA and the police.
Some say the GTW allowance can be shunted around the various units, some not. Some have said the plated weight of the trailer is important, some not,
looking at the actual weight. Some comment on trailer axle weightings (it's a twin), some don't care. All very confusing.
A Sprint Shuttle with a '7' car in it comes out at ca. 1200 Kg, more towards 1500Kg with the F3 car and tyres. It's plated 2000Kg
The Van has been either a 2.9t Transit, a 3.5t Transit or a 3.49t Land Rover (3.49t, 1-Ton, 1967 vintage).
GTW's are 4.3t, 5.5t and 6.5t respectively.
The 2.9t Transit (100 LWB) came very close to the GTW, so I'd always say go 3.5t to be VOSA-safe.
I have to admit, I am glad I don't live down that way, and that I have not been pulled yet.
- Perfectly happy that I am legal if right on the limit, but the time to do the above sound a pain, certainly to do more than once.
- I am not a morning person a and frequently time my arrival to an autotest fairly carefully to get signed on and walk the test and this would play
havoc.
- As I am towing a DIY build covered trailer (12ft*6ft*4ft slab sided box) behind a hatchback (E36 compact, previously Pug 306) it must stand
out!?
Also very sad to hear the experience on the ground of the way its policed is an inconsistant as the advice available online and verbally from the
authorities in question.
Daniel
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dhutch
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| posted on 1/2/15 at 11:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
Not sure if anyone will have the answer but will try anyway.
I've got hold of braked trailer which is not plated. What would the police/VOSA do in this case if they pulled me over?
Do they look at the max load of the tyres and take that as the trailer MAM?
When I did the same I was told that for a general purpose trailer, or car trailer, in the event of it being unplated they would take the rated MAM to
be three times the unladen weight.
In my case, with a 580kg trailer, and a car with a curb weight of I think 1135 and maximum trailer capacity of 1200kg this would have ended badly.
The kitcar was weighed at the same time and came to 540kg (local public weigh bridge). So 580+540=1120kg and I was able to loose 20kg from the trailer
by lightening the tailgate so it was game on if I could sort a plate.
Hence I asked was what required to get such a trailer plates, if someone could do that for me, and was told that I could do it myself. I pushed on and
asked 'so what do I plate it as' and they basically said I could plate it at what I liked providing the tyres and suspension where not
over loaded and the structure appeared sound.
- The axles have no rating on them, but the steel work is of the same section at the 1ton axles on another trailer I have and they appear to take the
load well and as expected which to me confirms the rubber is also about right, which is the best I can do and hence the best anyone can do at this
point given I am at least its third owner and the history unknown. The tires are rated at 358kg each hence (1430kg over four) hence enough that. The
chassis looks sound, and as a mechanical engineering graduate I was happy with how it looked and it had by then done many hours of 'endurance
testing' with the previous owner and a very similar car.
Plate was £3 off ebay, and I think stamped it out at 560 unlaiden, axle1 650kg, axle2 650kg, and the gross of 1100kg.
Since changing car I have re-plated it to 1200kg which is my new limit and gives a little more in hand for putting a pair of spare tyres in the car or
the like.
I am not going outside right now, but I think I stamped it as follows 560unlaiden again, 700kg for each axle, and the 1200 gross.
Daniel
*typo corrected
[Edited on 2/2/2015 by dhutch]
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Sierra
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| posted on 1/2/15 at 11:56 PM |
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If you've plated it at gross 1200kg and unladen 750kg doesn't that just allow you to have 450kg car on it otherwise you'll be over
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Oddified
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| posted on 2/2/15 at 12:08 AM |
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Surely plating your own trailer or re-plating it to suit your own needs just shows what a farce the current system is!?. No offence to people doing it
if that's what's needed to keep vosa happy but it doesn't make sense to me!.
Ian
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daniel mason
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| posted on 2/2/15 at 12:08 AM |
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760kg would leave him 440kg
Although earlier he said it's 580kg unladen
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dhutch
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| posted on 2/2/15 at 01:43 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
If you've plated it at gross 1200kg and unladen 760kg .../quote]
Sorry, a typo on my part 560, not 760.
Which is 580 less the 20kg I removed from the trailer with a lightened tailgate, etc.
Daniel
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dhutch
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| posted on 2/2/15 at 01:50 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
Surely plating your own trailer or re-plating it to suit your own needs just shows what a farce the current system is!?. No offence to people doing it
if that's what's needed to keep vosa happy but it doesn't make sense to me!.
Ian
I don't think so. De-rating of the plates on commercial vehicles is equally common.
While it may seem slightly over kill for a domestic trailer, and they could have taken it to be the maximum weight of the trailer at the time, rather
than that of the plated weight, formally derating the trailer with plate clearly says that although the trailer could carry more physically, due to
the limitation of my tow vehicle/licence combination I can only tow so much.
If the plated figure is too high I presume to offence would be not having the licence for the combination, and if the actual weight was over the
plated the offence would be driving an over weight vehicle. Although expect the outcome is similar for both?
- The other common time this is done is de-rating fixed body lorries to 7.5ton, or Vans to 3.5 ton.
- The issue comes with trailers, is if its shared, or you have more than one tow car.
Daniel
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Oddified
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| posted on 2/2/15 at 09:05 AM |
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Agreed with vehicles, but you can't just get a new plate off ebay for a vehicle weight change, down or up. With a bought trailer or if you have
a homemade trailer (nothing wrong with that) you can plate it to what ever you need....that just seems a bit odd in our over official health and
safety obsessed world. What stops people just slapping a new heavier mam on a trailer, who would know.
Don't get me wrong, i'm sure it makes life much easier with a trailer and if i built a trailer i'd just do the same with the rules
as they are!.
Ian
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