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Author: Subject: Reliant Kitten Project
John Bonnett

posted on 4/6/20 at 09:29 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HowardB

It will have air conditioning and a decent audio system like the Alpine Freestyle with all the modern features including a 7 inch screen, comfortable seats and plenty of room for luggage for Continetal trips. It is nice to have a relatively clean sheet of paper to be able to design and build a car to my own spec. Very early days yet but that is my objective so we'll see how it develops.


and you have a level that goes beep,.. perhaps Binky has been an influence?

H



I'm sure many of us builders have been inspired by the lads doing the Binky project. I know I certainly have.

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John Bonnett

posted on 4/6/20 at 03:40 PM Reply With Quote
The gearbox cross member is now fitted so that the gearbox is tilted down towards the axle by about 2 degrees. This should prevent the propshaft from fouling the chassis cross member throughout its entire travel. The angle of the gearbox pinion flange can be adjusted to suit by screwing the trailing arms in and out.





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John Bonnett

posted on 7/6/20 at 07:46 PM Reply With Quote
This is where things start to get tricky. With mechanical work a job is either right or wrong with no middle ground. Bodywork is different and needs careful thought and looking at from all angles and adjusting until it looks right. So before embarking on building up the 38mm diameter tubular frame I'm going to mock-up the body using a wire frame. I've made a start with the windscreen to set the rake and check the overall height.

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Mr Whippy

posted on 8/6/20 at 07:20 AM Reply With Quote
Meticulous attention to detail as usual but it would be nice to see any sketches or doodles you have done of the overall style of the car. The Sketch up model reminds me of a Cortina estate which I’m sure it will look vastly better than. Personally and I know that counts for nothing but I quite liked the Lamborghini's sloping rear roof line

[Edited on 8/6/20 by Mr Whippy]

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John Bonnett

posted on 8/6/20 at 07:59 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Meticulous attention to detail as usual but it would be nice to see any sketches or doodles you have done of the overall style of the car. The Sketch up model reminds me of a Cortina estate which I’m sure it will look vastly better than. Personally and I know that counts for nothing but I quite liked the Lamborghini's sloping rear roof line

[Edited on 8/6/20 by Mr Whippy]




It's all in the melting pot at the moment. I was planning on using the Kitten windscreen and had designed around that but unfortunately the standard screen is toughened glass which is a big no no and replacement laminated screens are rubbish I'm reliably informed. So I'm currently casting around for a suitable modern windscreen that is sufficiently narrow to fit the body.

[Edited on 8/6/20 by John Bonnett]

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ettore bugatti

posted on 8/6/20 at 07:26 PM Reply With Quote
Would you be able to share a top view and a front view of your sketch up model with dimensions?

That would be a nice template to get some ideas going.

Stevens Cipher is a interesting Reliant based sports car:
http://www.stevens-cipher.com/csscipher_road_tests.php



And dont forget the Reliant Fox:

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John Bonnett

posted on 8/6/20 at 07:59 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Would you be able to share a top view and a front view of your sketch up model with dimensions?

That would be a nice template to get some ideas going.

Stevens Cipher is a interesting Reliant based sports car:
http://www.stevens-cipher.com/csscipher_road_tests.php



And dont forget the Reliant Fox:



The brief is to build a sports brake of the 80s ilk along the lines of a Lancia HPE. It's important to try to get the proportions right while limited by certain constraints not the least being availability of suitably sized windscreens. On the Kitten the wheels are close to poking out from the arches but on my car if I'm going to fit the Fiesta windscreen the wheels will be 50-60mm inset from the edges of the arches to give a wider body.

I've had to bite the bullet and order a Fiesta screen and from that I'll make a wire frame mock-up before carefully packing it away until it is needed to form the profile for the windscreen aperture. The wire frame will enable me to build the 38mm diameter tubular windscreen frame and the structure that will underpin the aluminium bodywork and provide rigid mounting for the doors and tailgate.

The drawings I've done to date are all based on using the Kitten screen so because the Fiesta one is substantially wider and higher it's back to the drawing board. If the screen doesn't work I'll have a brand new one for sale!

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ettore bugatti

posted on 9/6/20 at 10:06 AM Reply With Quote
Are you going to widen the track a lot? I would think a Fiesta mk5 screen is way too wide and too tall.
I can dig some rough dimensions of the Citroen Ax screen if you are interested.

I couldn't resist to sketch an idea out.
Description
Description


[Edited on 9/6/20 by ettore bugatti]

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John Bonnett

posted on 9/6/20 at 12:04 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Are you going to widen the track a lot? I would think a Fiesta mk5 screen is way too wide and too tall.
I can dig some rough dimensions of the Citroen Ax screen if you are interested.

I couldn't resist to sketch an idea out.
Description
Description


[Edited on 9/6/20 by ettore bugatti]



I could do with your artistic talents; a superb bit of drawing, and yes that's pretty much what I'm hoping to achieve. I really like how you've captured such an aggressive stance and brought the whole design bang up to date.

Width wise the Fiesta screen should be okay and slanted at a 32 degree angle the height looks as if it can be accommodated. I sketched it up on Fusion and superimposed the drawing over a photo of an HPE and all looks promising. By converting to trailing arms I've been able to increase the wheelbase by 7 inches to 91 inches but I'm not altering the track. The body will be 120mm wider than the Kitten, achieved by being 60mm wider each sidethan the track. The body will be slightly narrower than an MGB which has the same track as the Kitten and the same amount of overhang and looks absolutely fine in my opinion.

I really appreciate you interest and input. Thank you.

[Edited on 9/6/20 by John Bonnett]

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John Bonnett

posted on 11/6/20 at 09:13 PM Reply With Quote
The Fiesta windscreen arrived today and I'm still hopeful that it will fit the body and look okay. The widest part of the screen measures 1357mm and the body width is planned to be 1520mm. As mentioned before, the height of the screen which is 745mm should if installed at 32 degrees slope match the Lancia HPE quite closely. I have to admit that I have never formed a windscreen aperture for a curved windscreen so it's going to be a journey of discovery and one that I'm facing with a degree of trepidation.

Using 1mm mild steel sheet I'm going to bend some lengths of L section 15mm x 15mm and shrink and stretch to produce the required profile to match the screen. I'll have to make it in separate lengths and weld them together to make a frame. Although time consuming this should be quite straightforward even welding the 1mm lengths together if I'm careful. Somehow and this is the unknown for me, I'll have to attach the formed aperture to the straight sections of the round tube frame that underpins the body and arrange things so that the final panelling flows from the aperture into the roof and scuttle.

I really hope the screen does work out because it will allow good forward vision and hopefully very little in the way of blind spots caused by thick pillars. And not forgetting the electrically heated demisting feature which is a huge bonus both because of its efficiency and not having to fit space consuming hot air ducting to the screen.

I'm at the stage where I could do some mechanical work like fitting the radiators and modifying the exhaust manifold or grasp the nettle and get stuck into the screen. Or a bit of both.

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Mr Whippy

posted on 12/6/20 at 12:11 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Are you going to widen the track a lot? I would think a Fiesta mk5 screen is way too wide and too tall.
I can dig some rough dimensions of the Citroen Ax screen if you are interested.

I couldn't resist to sketch an idea out.
Description
Description


[Edited on 9/6/20 by ettore bugatti]


that looks like a Reliant Scimitar!


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John Bonnett

posted on 12/6/20 at 12:25 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Are you going to widen the track a lot? I would think a Fiesta mk5 screen is way too wide and too tall.
I can dig some rough dimensions of the Citroen Ax screen if you are interested.

I couldn't resist to sketch an idea out.
Description
Description


[Edited on 9/6/20 by ettore bugatti]


that looks like a Reliant Scimitar!





This is what I'm aiming for and EB got it spot on with his sketch which actually blew me away.


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ettore bugatti

posted on 12/6/20 at 06:46 PM Reply With Quote
Although the Beta HPE was not designed by Guigiaro it has very much strong resemblence to Italdesign designs, lovely theme to sketch in. Your project is not far removed from 2+2 rwd coupe I have been working on in terms of packaging.

Width
Width


I think the screen will caused the wheels to look lost in the body if you take in account the space the side glass need to go when you wind them down. See the sketch for clarification.

Looking at various blueprints, I recon the screen width should be very similar to the track.
I guess wheel spacers or lower offset wheels might work.

Other screen dimensions I got are:
Fiat Cinqucento screen is 810/1330mm wide, top/bottom. Also used on the gtm libra.
Citroen Ax screen is 1390mm at its widest point, about 980 to 1060mm at the top. The length measured over the middle is 740mm.
Micra k10 is around 990/1345mm x 740mm.
The Fiat screen dimensions are quoted online, I measured the ax screen myself and the micra screen is scaled from a blueprint drawing.
Probably these are close to your current screen since they are from similar sized car from the same period.

What are the measurements of the Kitten screen?

Maybe a Fiat 126 or mgb gt glass are a lot narrower.

[Edited on 12/6/20 by ettore bugatti]

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John Bonnett

posted on 12/6/20 at 07:43 PM Reply With Quote
Thank you not only for your interest in my project but also for taking the trouble to research possible screen choices and for your sketches.

It's amazing that the whole design rests on the selection of the windscreen, a task not made easy by modern vehicles being made wider and wider making the choice very limited.

I have drawn up the Kitten screen plus the seal and I'll try to attach it. The big problem with using it is that the standard screens are toughened so not acceptable and after- market laminated are of very poor quality and fog up quickly so I understand. I discounted the MGB GT screen because it isn't tall enough and, because it curves round at the ends, cannot really be tilted at a steeper angle required by the Lancia. Its dimensions are approximately 1250 x 470mms.

You may well be right, and I'm sure you are, that the wheels might be too inset with the Fiesta screen but it is one of the smaller modern screens, is heated and (now) I have one, all of which are reasons to try to use it. I had ruled out widening the track but this may be necessary if the end result looks ridiculous.

Please do keep your thoughts and ideas coming.

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ettore bugatti

posted on 12/6/20 at 09:09 PM Reply With Quote
No problem, most information was at hand.

Funny, how the windscreen affects everything. I remember reading that in car design, the a-pillar design is one of the most important things to sort out.

A custom flat laminated windscreen is also an option, not as expensive as a custom curved one.

What are you plans for the door and side glass, reuse the Kitten ones?
Fiesta mk1/2 looks quite close in shape to the HPE one, must be the Italian Ghia design work.

Other ideas that could work with the Reliant axle width are:
Fiat 127 which is used on the Reliant Fox and Japanese kei cars from the 80/90s like the Suzuki Alto/ Maruti 800, Daihatsu Cuore/ Perodua Nippa, Suzuki Carry/ Bedford Rascal.
I dont think heated versions easily available.

But a wide track Reliant will corner though, Escort rear axle and Lotus Europa front suspension should be easy enough for you to put on.

At what height from the ground plane does the windscreen currently sit? I might draw some plan views up.

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John Bonnett

posted on 13/6/20 at 07:02 AM Reply With Quote
Some good thoughts there thank you. I'm fairly certain in my own mind that because of the benefits that I have already outlined, I'm going to press ahead with the Fiesta screen and build the rest of the body to suit. Whoever said how important the A post is certainly had great insight into the design aspects of a car body.

The attached drawing shows the Fiesta screen in place and superimposing the drawing over a photo of an HPE the bodywork fits.

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Mr Whippy

posted on 13/6/20 at 10:36 AM Reply With Quote
I'm impressed with your tolerances, you could teach the Germans a thing or two
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John Bonnett

posted on 13/6/20 at 10:39 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
I'm impressed with your tolerances, you could teach the Germans a thing or two



Ha ha, just how they came out putting the screen in the right place.

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ettore bugatti

posted on 15/6/20 at 11:22 PM Reply With Quote
Description
Description


The photo is slighty distorting the proportions, the sketch needs a proper scan.

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John Bonnett

posted on 16/6/20 at 07:28 AM Reply With Quote
This is the result of superimposing the Fusion sketch over a photo of an HPE and drawing the outline. The rear wheel arch on the HPE is further back than it will be on my car but apart from that, it all lines up well.


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SJ

posted on 16/6/20 at 10:21 AM Reply With Quote
The proportions look good!
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SJ

posted on 16/6/20 at 10:21 AM Reply With Quote
The proportions look good!
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John Bonnett

posted on 16/6/20 at 11:10 AM Reply With Quote
Thank you. It does look promising and I'm hopeful that it will work. Whether I can build it though is a different matter entirely.
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ettore bugatti

posted on 16/6/20 at 05:05 PM Reply With Quote
Ended up with a new sketch since something wasn't quite right with the greenhouse on the other sketch:
Description
Description

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John Bonnett

posted on 16/6/20 at 06:16 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Ended up with a new sketch since something wasn't quite right with the greenhouse on the other sketch:
Description
Description




I'd be pleased if I'd made that. Nice drawing thank you EB

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