so, i've decided to build a seven type car for racing (not locosts). i'm struggling on chassis choice though and was hoping for some input from memebers of this forum.

engine will be 2.0 zetec or duratec, maybe even 2.3 duratec as it fits with the class limits.
this is what i've come up with so far:

caterham. far too expensive for me.

westfield. very expensive,presumably decent resale value though? popular choice / the benchmark?

mk. seem to be reasonable enough price and Danny seems to have his going well enough, but i have concerns about the chassis accuracy / self centreing steering etc, and i really dont like the way the front of the roll cage fastens in.

aries. again seems to be very reasonabley priced. dont know too much else about them other than they used to be made by stm? which always seems good quality and quick. Rob Spencer races one or did (i think) which seems to give Danny Keenans a good enough run for its money.

procomp. seems like the best quality chassis and the old guy seems really helpfull and to know what he's talking about, but it really does seem to be a 'one man band' operation, which puts me off a little with regard to spares etc in the future. also i've never seen them used outside of locosts, which admitedley they are very good at.

any others?

advice welcome .
thanks.

go with aries.i may be biased as i have just finished building one and am awaiting iva but steve of aries is a great chap.and very helpful

Talk to Andy @ Saturn Sports Cars They build a Car for Team Train Racing

Linky

hi mate

you are more than welcome to come and have a look round my race car.
you can even come and measure an indy-r and see there are no issues withe our chassis steering etc.

i have got alot of interest in our race cars this year and im going to run a test sesion for all the people interested.
they can come along and drive my car and go from there if they want to order one.

but i dont think you will find a better handling seven car on the market for the price

thanks danny

no disrespect to Danny and his achievements but Procomp would be my choice for racing.

Danny may well be right that you can't get better for the price - but that doesn't mean you can't get better if you spend more.

quote:

---

Originally posted by mookaloid
no disrespect to Danny and his achievements but Procomp would be my choice for racing.

Danny may well be right that you can't get better for the price - but that doesn't mean you can't get better if you spend more.

---

It's OK to copy the winning cars, but are you prosperous enough to throw the same money at the sport as them?

I would go for the smallest overall package first if I wanted to start racing.

The details of setup are the often what most makes the difference between a a winner and a tail ender.

The MK cars seem to be doing well and i'm sure they're very good cars. However as mentioned it comes down to a particular car's setup. You could turn any car into a race winner(within reason).

There's someone who comes on here who makes the best seven style car the world has ever seen and it's the best thing to ever grace a racetrack. I just can't put my finger on why everyone doesn't race/drive one.

Go will an Aries.....I am building one at the min (1.8 zetec).Every thing fits were it should and Steve is one of the most helpfull blocks you could wish to deal with..The Chassis won the 750 race for years.Steve is also a worker not a sales man.........kit Car mag did a write up,worth a read.Good luck mate.
John

It might be a good idea to take up Dannys offer of a future test drive/factory visit.
He's put in some good results with the car this year, and i notice he won again at Oulton park yesterday, claiming both the fastest lap in both qualifying and the race.

As a track/race car i think they are proving some of the myths wrong this season, well worth considering as a viable race car option these days.

No one seems to have mentioned mnr. I know of Paul who sprints his zzr1400 with great results and a couple of others who race. Can't comment on the others but have had STM and mnr road cars and preferred the mnr in every way. But it was a higher budget car with more upgraded parts!
I would say a light weight aries would be very quick with a bike engine

Agreed with Chris MK have come a long way Danny is currently leading the pack and is now putting fasterst laps in, the Locoblade that Spencer runs is a good performing motor however it is coming second more often than first now I would say that is testament to the build and design of the Indy R also that Danny is now showing improvements as a Race driver. You have to remember that Spencer has developed his car over a long period of time and also has several more years more racing behing him. He is a truly good driver so it would appear that the MK developments have the edge at this time. MK's race cars are built to the same spec so can each be set to the drivers specifications, you can opt for fully roesejointed suspension so any problems with steering can be dialled out. PS if the roll cage bothers you aske them to fit one to your specification.

I would definitely take Danny up on the offer, you could always pop in for their open day in September

Procomp are a two-man father and son band. Don't worry about spares - everything is done in-house and they will always do everything in their power to keep their customers racing. I believe that they actually helped Ian Gray at STM develop what is now the Aries Locost and will tell you that it is the best budget option available; its not perfect though and hence you're better off with the LA Gold.

Their customer service is second-to-none in my view - and I've never owned one of their cars sadly.

Oh, and in answer to Austin Man's comment above, do not use Spencer's car as a reference point for any comparison, unless you are intending to take a Locost chassis and fit a wide track rear and a standard track Caterham front end... another case of half truths and sh*t information I'm afraid.

[Edited on 21/8/11 by TimC]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TimC
Procomp are a two-man father and son band. Don't worry about spares - everything is done in-house and they will always do everything in their power to keep their customers racing. I believe that they actually helped Ian Gray at STM develop what is now the Aries Locost and will tell you that it is the best budget option available; its not perfect though and hence you're better off with the LA Gold.

Their customer service is second-to-none in my view - and I've never owned one of their cars sadly.

Oh, and in answer to Austin Man's comment above, do not use Spencer's car as a reference point for any comparison, unless you are intending to take a Locost chassis and fit a wide track rear and a standard track Caterham front end... another case of half truths and sh*t information I'm afraid.

[Edited on 21/8/11 by TimC]

---

thanks for the input so far guys, some very interesting and varied opinions.

as far as copying the winning cars go, and money, well im not afraid to through a decent chunk of money at it. like i said a caterham is more than i'm prepared to pay for a race car and a westfield too is expensive and leaves me thinking that it just a case of paying for a name.

i did go to see procomp and mk ( and was impessed with both for diferent reasons) a long time ago, but have been away doing other things since then.

you defo cant take it away from danny at the moment hes doing well with the car.

cheers,

I can't believe nobody has mentioned the Striker and if you're not 100% set on a seven style, the Pheonix (same chassis as a Striker and now back in RAW hands) or Fury. Plenty of prooven race pedigree with all three.

My advice would be have a good look around at the race series's.

Decide what series you want to race in, see what cars are doing well and decide from there.

A seven is normally only competitive against other seven's, not impossible to beat full body kits

but aero packadge is pretty poor on a seven

Hi

Just a few words to put right some of the rather misleading comments from above.

Not winning outside of the 750MC. Well i find that rather strange as we have won out right in the welsh sprint championship and had class wins whilst setting new times and 0-64 ft records. Great success in the magnificent sevens championships when we have entered some of there rounds with basic 750 Kits spec cars. And had quite a bit of success with the Irish lads doing auto-solo events to mention just a few.
As for not running cars with much power well again rather strange as i seem to recall over the last 25 years we have built some very successful cars running 300HP Swindon VX's ( Works Vauxhall touring engines ) 300+HP Works Renault Touring engines. And where one off the first to use Honda power some 18 years ago with a NA 411 HP screamer built by Tom Laffey, Not too mention all the cars built with 200 HP Xflows.

The success comes from not just producing and building the cars to a very high standard but also in knowing what you are doing with chassis design and setup. Which is why so many off the other manufacturers kit cars that have been successful have been through our hands and had our input in development. Which means that when you buy our product it comes with everything right first time. You don't have to then take the product you have brought and modify the chassis re-position all the pickup points and extra bracing to stop the chassis flexing or put up with the chassis breaking / fracturing every other race. It comes as a product ready to do the job it was sold to do. So what looks like a little extra outlay initially actually works out to be quite cheap in comparison by the time you have the car in a true competitive state. And comes with experience that goes from looking after complete novice race drivers to working with FIA GT teams.

Cheers Matt

Anyone know the difference between an LA Roadster and an LA Gold? Is the former an earlier version of the latter?

Reason for asking: L A ROADSTER KIT CAR | eBay

If a LA Roadster is any good, then looks like the price will go up!

Cheers
Mike

unless iv had memory loss i cant remeber ever bracing my chassis moving any brackets.
or is it that mine must be a one of car and iv been lucky lol.

i think it shows with the results iv been having that i no what im doing with car setup.and there are no handling issues with the indy-r.

thanks danny

Hi

Danny did i mention an Mk. However i do seem to recall that yours and the other car both had the chassis fail as did Ian kempsons on many occasions and that's a FACT witnessed by many people so you cant Denny that.
Also if you actually take the times you are achieving with the hayabusa and slicks and compare to the RGB times achieved with yoko AO48's and 1000cc motors you really are not going that quick in comparison. but then you are running in a championship where even when you finish 3 LAPS down on the leader of your class you still achieve points for 3rd place in class. Not exactly competitive is it.

Cheers Matt

Oh yea just had pointed out that you have increased the bracing on your car technically. Your car was originally built with a 1 1/2" roll cage as it was on the stand at auto sport this year. Which then suddenly appeared with 1 3/4" dia tubing. Yes that was when members of MK threatened physical abuse when i asked them if they could provide the paperwork for the roll cage to go with a customers MK car in for race preparation. Obviously you could not provide that paper work and where lying.





[Edited on 23/8/11 by procomp]

if you or any rgb car would like to come and race with us iv got lots of slicks to lend out just to see who is talking rubbish.

these rgb cars you talk about are not seven style cars.iv only every seen a faster time done by an rgb car once this year and that was at mallory park by a spire.

my car broke last year due to a 100mph shunt up the back of a westfield.this years car has been trouble free.

the slicks iv been using cost only £10 i think they are well past there best.
when i put new slicks on at croft i was 5 seconds faster than last year.
so i dont think iv been doing bad the rest of the time when all the other front runners have new tyres every two races

thanks

Hi

So you deny that an Mk IndyR chassis had chassis failure whilst running in the CNC championship without race damage and that Ian kempsons car has had numerous chassis failures during the 2010 season. ?


Cheers Matt

It may help if we knew what the regs are. Slicks? Road going?

Wyn

quote:

---

Originally posted by procomp
Hi

So you deny that an Mk IndyR chassis had chassis failure whilst running in the CNC championship without race damage and that Ian kempsons car has had numerous chassis failures during the 2010 season. ?


Cheers Matt

---

Hi

No i believe and there are witnesses that the chassis have failed with nothing to do with racing accidents. Ian's car has had numerous chassis problems which have all been witnessed by many in the paddock.

And now getting defencive regarding RGB cars and seven shapes. Well in the Kits there is absolutely no difference in aero performance between the Strikers LA's westfields and the fury / phoenix type shapes as proved in the Zetec class and again in RGB when Tim Grey won the old class C in a striker against the full bodied cars in the class. So again if you take the RGB class F cars times and compare you can clearly see that the MK would simply be eaten alive if reduced to a set of A048's and a 1000cc Which is why they refuse to run a car in the RGB.

And it's not a "get Mk thread" it's simply a case of dealing with straightforward FACTS and not misleading information.
And yes it has gone way OT from what was being asked by the OP but we can put that down to people trying to give misleading info and Danny getting all defencive.

So back to the Op's question simply take a look at the 750Mc results where JP-Strikers Raw-Strikers Westfields La Golds Dax Rush's Ron Book chassis MNR's and yes MK's compete. Then work out what you want from the manufacturer and what it needs to make thier chassis competative.

Cheers Matt

I would not like to see this thread descend into an MK Vs the 750MC as it would be a shame to alienate some potential entrants into Kits and/or RGB.

The Indy R (the same as other sevens) would not be competitive against RGB mid engined (ClassR) cars but there is no reason why it could not compete well against the strikers/MNRs/Fury/Phoenix that exist in Class F. It would take some time to get to the front of F as it is very competitive but it would be a great place to develop and improve the cars (already good) ability. The championship winning car can come from either class as points are awarded based on class position.

I personally would like to see more diversity in RGB, the more the merrier.

By the way, just to correct Dannys earlier post, his fastest lap at Mallory would have qualified him 4th on the RGB grid (behind 3 class R cars) based on the times this year, 0.08 seconds ahead of the fastest class F fury. Regardless, 48 seconds around Mallory is a good time and shows that the basic platform of the car is very capable.

Regards

Paul

I do enjoy these threads

On a more practical note I would suggest the OP goes and actually talks to the different manufacturers to see which one he gets on with best - the cars themselves aren't REALLY all that different at the end of the day. I know Matt winds a lot of people up by telling the truth (as he sees it obviously ) and a lot of people just don't like being told they're doing it wrong - in MY experience Matt & Ivan are rather annoyingly seldom wrong though and unlike a lot of people in the kit car industry do what they say they are going to, when they say they are going to do it (and no that's not a dig at MK, rather the kit car industry in general).

I spoke to Martin Keenan several times many many years ago when Locosts were just starting out and I got on great with him tbh - I had different experiences with MK when he left to develop other things mind you but that just MY experience - lots of other people obviously get on with them very well.

So, entertaining as these threads are, they serve no useful purpose whatsoever - but then we all knew that already didn't we

My two cents worth from somebody tou asked the same question this time last year.
I decided to go with an MK..and so did a friend of mine. The 2 builds were started at the same time the difference being.. MK were building his car and i built my own car.....
A year on if you ask me or my friend would we make the same choice now .. the answer would be NO ....
BTW both these cars were built for racing and hillclimb ...
Now the reasons for saying NO..
.if i were doing it again i would buy a westfield ...a built one! as it would work out cheaper than building an MK as most people know building always has hidden cost.
After finishing my car in july and on its debut last weekend on the hills.. I had 2 class wins on both days with a 12th overall on the first day and a 9th on the second day ...I was in the middle of the single seater.. so with out doubt the car can perform and it did..
My reason fo saying clear of an MK is ther total lack of customer service... and the quality of there parts they supply with there kit...I waited for weeks and weeks for parts to finish my build which was extremely fustrating and was constantly being told a bunch of lies from MK being told week after week they were on there way but never came...i eventually had to travel from Ireland to MK workshop to get my parts to find they still didnt have them all there..
And dont think you get any better service if they build your car for you...in fact its worse..
My friend got delivery of his car in may and did one hill climb and track day and had a small accident at the track ..to find the engine came of it mounts and damaging the dry sump pump due to MK fitting standard engine mounts amd not competition ones...he had to remove his engine and to get it checked ..while doing all this work he has uncovered just how badly the car was built... their wiring of the car was just down right brutal...and you wouldnt see it on a tractor...so now he it totally rewiring the car.. also when he removed his seats even tough there is a strap welding into the frame of the car for mounting the seats they bolted them straight to the 5 mm alloy floor which is dame right dangerious...

he is also still waiting 2 months later for parts to finish rebuilding his car after the accident from MK and they dont seem to be coming ..
so if you have an accident don think youll get your car repaired fast as you will never get the parts from MK

So buy a westfield ... cheaper in the long run...and at least someone answers the phone in the westfield office

Only when MK put a car in a one on one, like for like situation, will the qualities(or lack of) really come out.

But why race against similar cars, when you can be a big fish against minnows in the Allcomers?

A hyabusa in a 7 type car should be unbeatable against what run in the class MK choose to showcase their product. When someone shows up with a bonafide LMP car, and thrashes the lot of them, what will the opinions be then? MK are less than average?

Cheers,
Nev

matt ur just going to have to watch this space you will no when im in rgb.

neville have you seen the cars i race againts there abit more than cars made in a shed.for example a dtm audi,caterhams,westfilds with 270bhp.
i go in the allcomers for abit of fun.the lmp car was laping mallory in 45 seconds how do you want me to beet that in a seven type car.
the last time i raced in the oulton were there was lots of seven style cars i won by 48 seconds.

thanks danny

You'll have to take into consideration that I have a REALLY sh*tty cold at the moment and have my grumpy hat on while I'm writing this BUT I find it absolutely impossible to take seriously anything someone who insists on posting in txt speak on forums says...... would it kill you to post in English???

Going back to erlier posts, i do belive its unfair to compare rob spencer and danny keenan when spencer is running a standerd engine (like that of the mk driven by wainwright in the series)

I think you will find that Danny Wainright gave Danny R a runf for his money at cadwell, he also did quite well at Mallory not bad really for his first few outings.

Rule 1 of sales

Never slag any one elses product

Rule 2

Sell yours on the strength of its qualities

If you cant sell yours by rule 2 then you need to review your product, I don't note Mk ripping anyones product to bits on this forum Hmmm

It would appear that a certain few on this forum only come to life when M and K appear in any post.

remember Karmas a bitch boys


PS See the Oulton footage and decide on the cars handling capability

Hi

First of Austin man i commented on this thread after YOU made deliberately misleading comments against my products. And again once Danny started making some what misleading comments.

If you cant comment without actually sticking to FACTS then why comment. I haven't made a single personal comment or slagged the MK products off. I have merely kept to the FACTS.

And as for the video footage. Well that surely just goes to prove what i and others have said. Danny's car running with a tuned Hayabusa and slicks being able to only just lap within 1-2 seconds of the current class F RGB cars running with STOCK 1000 cc engines and Yokohama A048's. Regarding the handling again the vid shows Danny's car being able to leave the other car for dead on acceleration and straight line speed but then loose all that advantage at every corner. And just watch the car as he takes any small amount of kerb it's all over the place with no control of the damping what so ever.

Cheers Matt

matt i think you should be in f1. you no so much about car set-up.

if you had the same engine as mine and my £10 slicks and your car how much would you gain over the A048's
just so i now how far iv got to go before im as good as you.

just to let you no my engine is over 90bhp and takes the car over 100 mph.i no you won't be used to going that fast in ur locost

Matt never tried to make misleading comments about your car I did state that it was to my knowledge very succesfull in the 750 series which I believe is a positive comment and if I recall that I not all hadn't really heard of it really outside the 750. You where obviously able to substantiate that it has had other success, therefore I gifted you the opportunity to further advertise the cars ability.

If I have in any way mislead any on then I apologies never my intention too as I wouldnt wish to affect anyones business as stated before the product should sell on its own merrits. I think if you ask spencer about the cornering ability of the MK he would testify that it pushed him all round Mallory I think that Danny would also agree that he is still learning too, he did on a few occasions lock up into some corners.

Hi

And there you go Danny nothing factual but resorting to personal comments. !!!

You keep referring to these £10 slicks but have already said you purchased new slicks for the previous meeting at croft.!

And i am quite proud of the fact that we are involved in the Locost championship. Yes that's the championship that has a reputation for being one off if not the closest and most competitive championship in the UK, And yes our products - setup work - and general workmanship are amongst the best in that championship.

You comment on locosts only being 100MPH well yep but i would bet that they are carrying as much apex speed on YOKO A539's as you are in your car on slicks. You see anyone can buy straight line speed / performance but where the setup and chassis dynamics come into play is round the corners. I don't feel the need to go on about all the 150+MPH cars i setup work on and test as that's just day to day work. And give me the choice of whether id like to drive a 150+MPH car or drive a 100MPH ( Locost ) car in one of the closest and most competitive championships in the UK. I usually chose the Locost. Why because it's a championship where to do well you have to be at the top off your game and drive to a very good standard.

Cheers Matt

PS. I take it your not going to answer the question from earlier in the posts or acknowledge your customers problems with parts supply / workmanship complaints. ?

PPS. As it's now resorted to personal comments rather than FACTS i feel it's time to take no further part in this thread.

Gentlemen

Not a good advert for the sport this thread is it..

There's only one truth in Motorsport, and it's a stopwatch.

I'm not going to post the relevant lap times of the various cars on here, but we can all go away and compare who's doing what times where (google is your friend)
We know what slicks are worth over A048's..
We know what extra power and less weight is worth too..

And we can all look up the benchmark times too (i.e. how quick one is against the Formula Fords!)

We can look at video's and be impressed - or not, depending on how you interpret what you see.

And work it all out... if we could be bothered..


Or we could - GET A LIFE, and quietly get on with our bit of the sport, and the important job of attracting more people into it!

Right Rant Mode Off

Back to the OP's question..

There are folk on here who are talking about their own products - they will, quite rightly, be biased.
(If they're not, then there's something very wrong indeed!)

There are folk on here who have spent a fair amount of time developing a car into something quite competitive, often this car can be a real oddball too, and they will be biased also.. (for the same reason as the above)

The only person who can tell you what will work for you is - You.

There's only really one way to do this, get yourself to as many event's as you can of the class you want to have a bash at and really get involved, offer your services as a helper (there's always somebody who needs an extra pair of hands) and you'll whittle your list down really quick.. watching how things work, break, get repaired and who having the best crac is very illuminating.

Then go and visit the manufacturers of your short list - if you don't like the look & feel - walk away, one of them will Click and thats the one.

You'll then spend lots of time and enthusiasm and a bit of money developing it over several seasons until you and it are competitive, to you it will then be the best thing since sliced bread and you too can be on here sellings it's virtue's

Well said this thread started of as somebody wanting to know which chassis may be good for racing not a mud slinging post on how good my chassis but there's is crap

Ps spoke with Ian kempster today about the chassis always breaking and he said this is news to him the only problem he had was a worn nylon nut which came of the rear upright at anglesey .........

I'm here at silverstone just met up with Austin man and zetecamo such a small world all we need now are the 5 finger windows from here to complete the set

Before I even read the first post, I had a feeling this thread would become a slagging match between the usual suspects.

Sad.