Yeah, it's this old chestnut again. I've posted this on the Dax forum, but there's a wider group on lcb so I thought I'd ask here as well.

I don't want to put them in the rear arches, and there aint enough sidewall to the Dax front arches to put anything in there. So I've been faffing around for a bit and come up with another idea, which seems to cover all the requirements, but I'd appreciate a sanity check in case I've missed anything!
The idea is to put them on the rear of the arch here:


The wooden thing on the floor is a 60 degree angle template which shows the angles of visibility the repeater has to meet (from 5 degrees to 60 degrees out) - no worries here that I can see:


And no problems with the visibility to the rear (the line on the floor is 5 degrees out from directly backwards)


It's an inch or so above the minimum height (35cm). Errrrr so can anyone see why that wouldn't work? I want to be sure before drilling holes in the arch.

Andy

IIRC there is a requirement to see them from a shallow front angle too. Not 100% though without looking at the manual.

Does it still meet the angles if you have your wheels turned full lock?

Needs to be seen 5 degrees from the front, so possible.
Why not on rear arch? Easier to wire in and fit.

Side Repeaters

My bad, needs to be seen between 60 to 5 degrees from the rear, not from the front. Page 176 of IVA manual.
So it should be ok.

[Edited on 8-4-13 by 40inches]

As said above, I think it will fail the 5 degree test as soon as lock is applied.

I solved the problem by putting them in the mirror housing.


Mirror with button indicator

quote:

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Originally posted by Jimfin
As said above, I think it will fail the 5 degree test as soon as lock is applied.

I solved the problem by putting them in the mirror housing.


Mirror with button indicator

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Description

Mine passed no problem in rear arch same as 40inches said

Side Repeaters

Added a clear pair to headlamps later

clear LED in headlight


P.S set my castor to 22mm good IVA self centering
no where near as good as a tin top though

Description

Passed at Newcastle on 14/8/2012, they are sufficiently visible from the rear to tick the box

...and this is why it's good to talk
Didn't think of the lock, will have to investigate.
That said, lots of people put them on the side of the arch, and that must be out of sight from behind when on full lock. Hmmmm.

Rear Arch - dark orange LED - hardly notice its there
Wire from rear indicator..
Used cheap brushable seam sealer to waterproof and permanent fix wiring

Car getting there
(Spot the LED in the rear arch)
I really was not happy with indicator visibility so added clear/orange LED later to the headlamp bowl..
Can see if my indicator fails to self cancel too

[Edited on 8/4/13 by johnemms]

quote:

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Originally posted by blakep82
Does it still meet the angles if you have your wheels turned full lock?

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Looking at Westfield and Caterham, they both use indicators mounted on the sides of the front wings. So they cannot possibly be visible to the rear on full lock, which would argue that it doesn't matter. This would make sense given the angles of visibility requirements, which are presumably aimed at ensuring indications are visible for lane changes on motorways etc (I used to believe that the repeaters were for turning out of junctions, but given that it's not neccesary to actually see them from side-on, they can't be).
I feel another clarification email to the nice folks at VOSA comming on...

Caterham (and possibly westfield) have type approval so dont need IVA IIRC.

quote:

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Originally posted by loggyboy
Caterham (and possibly westfield) have type approval so dont need IVA IIRC.

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Well I've fired off an email to Vosa, they were very helpful last time I contacted them so let's see what they come back with.

Mine passed without question with repeaters on the front wings. The testers did say to me that they think the mirrors is a good place to have them though.

I've put mine in the same place as op as can see nothing in the manual to say will fail there.

quote:

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Originally posted by theduck
I've put mine in the same place as op as can see nothing in the manual to say will fail there.

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Has anyone actually failed due to masking when on full lock? Or is it just an assumption that a particularly picky tester might choose to assess with the wheels turned?

Not seen anyone fail on it. I agree if wheels move angles change and haven't checked the angles with full lock, but lots have them there and no failures so far that I am aware of.

Must admit I have not seen as low as Andy is planning before. Most I have seen are on the top edge and around the pivot line so will have relatively little arc when lock is applied. Some of the Caterhams in fact have them in front of the pivot line so when lock is applied they will actually be more readily seen from the rear.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jimfin
Must admit I have not seen as low as Andy is planning before. Most I have seen are on the top edge and around the pivot line so will have relatively little arc when lock is applied. Some of the Caterhams in fact have them in front of the pivot line so when lock is applied they will actually be more readily seen from the rear.

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Ok so I've had a play this evening. In the original photo, they were indeed hidden with the wheel at full lock.
I've found a position where they are visible at full lock, further up and on the side of the arch:


Rear visibillity at 5 degrees:


So that looks like it'll work. What I'm going to do though is wait to see what VOSA come back with - if possible I'd prefer it here - it looks better and the light is better angled:


If not, I'll put it where it is in the first pic. I'll update this thread when they reply...

Currently in the same situation...

At Autosport at the start of the year I was chatting to one of the guys from GBS and he was adamant that they only test the angles of visibility with the wheels straight.

The majority of kit car manufacturers position them on the front arches on their own builds. From memory there's only Roadrunner who don't.

I love the IVA at times!!

Mark.

quote:

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Originally posted by johnemms
Mine passed no problem in rear arch same as 40inches said

Side Repeaters

Added a clear pair to headlamps later

clear LED in headlight


P.S set my castor to 22mm good IVA self centering
no where near as good as a tin top though

Description

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Update - my request is currently working its way through several VOSA departments and has reached the policy section - so fingers crossed for some guidance soon.

OK, had a reply back today (emphasis mine):

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From: Steve.XXXXX@vosa.gsi.gov.uk [mailto:Steve.XXXXXX@vosa.gsi.gov.uk] On Behalf Of approvals@vosa.gov.uk
Sent: 19 April 2013 11:16
To: Andrew XXXXXX
Cc:XXXXX@vosa.gsi.gov.uk; Enquiries@vosa.gov.uk; XXXXXX@vosa.gsi.gov.uk;XXXXXXX@vosa.gsi.gov.uk
Subject: Re: Question regarding IVA test for M1 Cars - Side Repeaters on Lotus 7 Type


Good morning Mr XXXXXX,

We have now received an answer back in respect to your enquiry and it has been confirmed that the angles are checked "with the wheels in the straight ahead position".

Hope this now helps you finalise the positioning of your lights.

Yours sincerely

Steve XXXXXX

Technical Officer
Approvals
Customer Service Centre
Vehicle & Operator Services Agency (VOSA)
Department for Transport (DfT)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So there we go. I'll make sure I have a hard copy of said email when I go to IVA, just in case. I've asked if they will add a note to the manual for the next release, to clarify that point.

One note - it's quicker if you email approvals@vosa.gov direct, rather than going to enquiries@.

Hope that helps a few folks, certainly means I can get mine done this weekend

Andy

Could you email me a copy of the email for my file?

Excellent news. Good to have some clarity.