Chris PTM
For all the guys who have completed their cars do u ever have the fronts lock under braking
and do you think abs would help any on the greasy b roads
do you think it would be worth the hassle????
Ought to be possible using Granada bits instead of Sierra bits, all MK3 and on Granadas have ABS. Well tricky though and lots of bits to find room
for.
John
ABS helps sell cars to idiots.
Given that you have asked the question,
you have shown that you no longer need it.
Also,
Do you know that Ford etc, spend millions matching vehicle weight to abs sensors?
It won't work
Cheers
Chris
Learn the art of cadence braking. Then get fed up and order some sticky Yoko's from George Polley to arrive next wed. Spooky, that's just what I've
done.
Chris PTM
im used to left footin in the front wheel drivers but just had the thought that the cars is very light at the front
one of those silly ideas u get when u have a very borin job!!!!!!
quote:
ABS helps sell cars to idiots.
Given that you have asked the question,
you have shown that you no longer need it.
quote:
Also,
Do you know that Ford etc, spend millions matching vehicle weight to abs sensors?
It won't work
Cheers
Chris
Did not ford develop a cheap type of Mechanical ABS system to fit to escorts and fiestas?. I seem to vagely remember reading something about a purely
mechanical system using some type of centrifugal clutch system.
Paul.
*shakes head in a resigned sort of a way*
you really think that a Locost needs ABS?
Fine,I give up
Cheers
Chris 
the old mk3 escorts had a type tha run off belts from the inner cv joints or somethin
was talkin to a fella once who was in a series 1 rs turbo when the driver had a bit of a "moment" ie shat himself turned out one of the belts broke
under brakin
quote:
*shakes head in a resigned sort of a way*
you really think that a Locost needs ABS?
Fine,I give up
Cheers
Chris
quote:
Did not ford develop a cheap type of Mechanical ABS system to fit to escorts and fiestas?. I seem to vagely remember reading something about a purely mechanical system using some type of centrifugal clutch system.
Paul.
Huzzah, somebody fighting my corner so I don't have to.
If we can get something sorted, when it gets to that stage we're hopefully gonna try and play with ABS on our machine.
And for the record, our car will also not be a 'proper Locost'.
Slightly bigger, therefore slightly heavier and we're also gonna fit everything we can into it as we like toys.
Ok, so maybe it won't go as fast or handle quite so nicely as a 'proper Locost', but who gives a rat's ass?
We'll still whoop most things on the road and enjoy every moment of it...
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that if the car is fitted with ABS then the car has to go through a more stringent brake test to ensure that
they work correctly. One of my donors, 2.8 XR4x4, is fitted with ABS, don't know to disconnect the ABS as it's tied into everything so I'm going to
fit it to my 'Winter Mobile'. No point making 1 car when you can make 3 and sell 1 to cover cost of other 2, keeps her indoors happy.
The SVA does detail some extra stuff on abs.
Im not scared.
atb
steve
quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that if the car is fitted with ABS then the car has to go through a more stringent brake test to ensure that they work correctly. One of my donors, 2.8 XR4x4, is fitted with ABS, don't know to disconnect the ABS as it's tied into everything so I'm going to fit it to my 'Winter Mobile'. No point making 1 car when you can make 3 and sell 1 to cover cost of other 2, keeps her indoors happy.
the highways safety has done studies to see if cars with abs are involved in more, or fewer accidents. it turns out that they are no less liklely to be involved in accidents than cars without abs.there is much speculation about the reason. some people think that drivers of abs cars use the abs incorrectly. some people think that since abs allows you to steer during a panic stop, more people run off the road and crash. try and stop an abs car in the snow
i havent even started my car yet
it was just one of them ideas i had it will have a bias adjuster at the pedals
just its easier to fit such things at build time rather than to retro fit (cheaper 2)
quote:
try and stop an abs car in the snow
with the wheels locked on snow. the snow builds up in front of the tyre and slows the car down. my 2.5i is a bastard in the snow, one car maker fitted a switch to switch off abs in the snow
funny think is, if im driving my open topped car in the rain or the snow im gonna be an idiot, and the possible tenedency to not be so good on snow is
something i am 100% sure i am not gonna experence! I have two other cars i could suffer that in and , well yes, they both have ABS too!!!!
atb
steve
yes and the other 2 cars wont stop very well in the snow
nothing stops very well in the snow so where is the problem?
abs come on cos the wheel has locked, so......dont brake so hard like you would on a normal car.
but then of course you dont stop, so you brake harder.
at that point the abs comes on.
on a non abs car you just skid.
cant see your meaning really.
atb
steve
Hmm bit late to this, but have to chip in my ha'penny worth.
Steven, Ive been looking at abs for my car, but Ive decided that cadence braking is more of a skill that I should learn instead of using a mechanical
crutch.Id have freaked out with any system except anti dive on my bikes...
As for the snow issue, well, the poster that said the wheel locks in non abs on snow and builds up a front of virgin snow and slows the car from the
drag had it dead right. Its a controlled skid with drag.
Ive ridden dirt bikes a lot in the snow when I lived in england, and in snow, the most effective technique by far to stop was to jam the back brake
on, lock the rear wheel and slew it to a halt, stopped quicker if you threw it sideways slightly while you was at it (remembering to trail a leg to
stop it going too far!). Definatly better stopping like that than freewheeling. Maybe you could fit some sort of disabling switch in case you got
caught out in freak weather? It bloodly hailed and snowed here last week, and here is the south of france...
if im driving an open topped car in the ice and snow in the winter, it would be my brain thats fitted with a disabling switch
BTW - only my mum calls me stephen, or my wife if shes not pleased with me.
Pretty sure i would have been a witness at an inquest if it hadnt have been for abs on my car....see earlier in the thread.
And the bitch didnt even look at me or apologise. should have billed her for the tyre wear.
Her BF acknowledged me at least tho.
atb
steve
ABS does not reduce stopping distance compared to someone who can balance their car on the limits of braking without locking the wheels. ABS helps to
control the idividual braking load to each wheel independantly of each other to keep them all on their maximum. Handy when one wheel hits a puddle!!
The granada system uses a single line to the rear, therefore only controls three systems rather than four and has no load sensors for the weight. My
V6 Locost will be having the granada system as it is simple to fit. The system can be turned off by simply removing the main relay, as done on my
XR4x4i on road rallies. This is all coming from a motorsport engineer.
Remeber to make sure you connect the sensors and pipe work up the right way or it could all go pair shaped!!
Steve,
Surely it would be far better if you learnt to drive properly instead of relying on technology to save you and others around you.
If you saw people in the road whilst traveling at sixty then you should have anticipated their actions and slowed accordingly. Same goes for
approaching a junction at same speed. Regardless of who has priority it is suicide to think you can continue to drive in such a manner.
You would not last five minutes on a motorcycle if you rode it in the same way.
As has already been said ABS is useful for the average idiot that does not know or care how to drive properly!
The idea of these cars is to improve your enjoyment and skills of driving surely?
If you want to put ABS onto your car because it is a challenge then great, get to it, but don't do it as an excuse for bad driving.
If you watch the motoring programs on TV you will see that the first thing they do when test driving an exotic car is to switch of the ABS and
traction control.
Work it out for yourself!
Terry
ps. not meant as an attack on Steve, just my opinion.
[Edited on 6/11/02 by Bull]
I'm with Steve on this one. If it is feasible to fit ABS on one's car then I'm all for it.
About the driver skill thing- people have been saying the same stuff about every motoring innovation since the early 1900's. You can just imagine
it-
Automatic ignition advance? nonsense, much sooner set it myself while I'm driving.
Synchromesh? learn to drive properly, match the speeds to the engine and changing gear will be easy
Radial tyres? Don't need em, old boy, nothing wrong with these crossplies
Power steering? Not me, don't want to lose all that road feel
ABS is just the next step in a series of innovations that have made cars easier and more pleasant to drive. Maybe not necessary on a light car like a
locost, but desirable all the same. Naturally you would turn it off before going for a fast lap on a circuit, but it isn't there for that, it's purely
for road emergencies
Expect the unexpected, glasshopper
John
Well said, my car will have the abs switched for play times etc.
The jury is still out for me.
Yes, ABS has saved my arse-and somebody elses too! before....but only because I was driving like an idiot in the first place! I was young and had just
been let loose in the firm's new Granada. But the point made where ABS is only there to guard against people not driving accordingly to the road
conditions is very valid IMHO. What next? Airbags in the Locost? As cars become ever safer with modern technology, people drive them ever faster.
ABS lets you steer around objects that you are trying to avoid. It doesnt stop you any quicker. If a car pulls out in front of you at a road junction,
with normal brakes, you would probably lock up and 'T' bone the offending vehicle, no matter which way you swung the steering wheel. ABS will let you
swerve away from it (a probable 'natural' reaction) straight into the oncoming traffic on the other side of the road. This scenario is a becoming a
more frequent occurence. I would rather hit a stationary car than one coming towards me.
FACT, changing driving style to suit the road conditions will prevent far more accidents than ABS ever will.........
Spot on Stu.
Cheers
Chris
Wow, some people have a real lack of understanding!
>About the driver skill thing- people have been saying the same stuff about every motoring innovation since the early 1900's. You can just imagine
it-
>Automatic ignition advance? nonsense, much sooner set it myself while I'm driving.
So you think this was a safety issue then? Not done to improve engine performance?
>Synchromesh? learn to drive properly, match the speeds to the engine and changing gear will be easy.
Same as above. Improve gear changes and improve lap times.
>Radial tyres? Don't need em, old boy, nothing wrong with these crossplies.
You really must be one of those ignorant fools behind the wheel if you can't see the improvements this has made to performance as well as safety.
>Power steering? Not me, don't want to lose all that road feel.
Initially developed for commercial vehicles. Ever tried driving a fifties or sixties truck or bus (of course you haven't, you'd never cope with
non-synchromesh gears)? Adapted to heavy cars first, and later to small cars for low speed manouverability. Certainly not needed in a lightweight
vehicle unless you have mobility problems.
>ABS is just the next step in a series of innovations that have made cars easier and more pleasant to drive.
How? So you can feel more confident driving at higher speeds than you would have done before? That just means the accident you are going to have will
be at a higher speed.
>Maybe not necessary on a light car like a locost, but desirable all the same.
Again why?
>Naturally you would turn it off before going for a fast lap on a circuit, but it isn't there for that, it's purely for road emergencies.
Show me an instance when ABS will be more advantageous than driver skill?
> Expect the unexpected, glasshopper.
Don't need to I've got ABS!
You stick to your over weight car with all that wonderful technology doing the driving for you.
Me? I want to enjoy driving in my stripped down basic car that will stop in less distance because it doesn't carry all that weight around.
I choose not to be a spectator in my own car.
Terry
ps. why are you building a locost if you want all the luxuries of a family saloon?
[Edited on 7/11/02 by Bull]
It's not the confidence to drive faster, its the confidence that the car will come to a halt in a controlled manner. Like i said earlier, a driver
who can maintain his brakes at the optimum on his own through the feel of the pedal can stop just as quick. But what happens if this driver hits a
wet man hole hover whilst braking, loss of friction, sudden temporary loss of control; mud on the road has the same effect. Any driver who thinks he
is that good should be taken off the road for everyone elses sake! My abs will be switched off for play times when i expect the the car to be power
sliding around, the difference in wheel speeds confuse the abs causing the system to activate. Of course I would never power slide my car on the
public highway!!!!!!!!
My car will also compete in autotests on grass, and as proven in my XR4x4i, abs and grass don't go well together, same as snow.
quote:
Originally posted by Bull
Wow, some people have a real lack of understanding!
Ooh! All this is starting to make me cross!!
Oops! - so cross I pressed the wrong key!!
Anyway to continue.
Personally I'm not fitting ABS 'cos I don't think I need it. Full stop. End of story!!
It's not 'cos ABS is rubbish, I'ts not 'cos I think that anyone with ABS is a wholy inadiquate driver, It's not 'cos it goes against the ethos of a
light weight sports car - It is just beacuse in my opinion I don't need it - it's not right or wrong it's just my opinion thats all.
I'm all for discussion and opinion - without it my car would still be a pile of steel at the steel stockists but I hate this attitude that people have
to justify their opinion with a high minded, morally superior 'Any one who doesn't think as I do obviously shouldn't be allowed out on the road' type
of attitude.
Of course inovation is a good thing. The ultimate end of some of the arguments here is that we should all be driving Model T fords beacuse we are all
superior drivers and do not need any of these modern aids that the proles need!!
But with all inovation and technology the right approach is to use it properly, be in control of it and use it when we think it will help us - not go
round like some bloody luddite smashing other peoples approach just beacuse you prefer to do without.
The snow issue is a classic example: Driving in snow is potentially dangerous (and also great fun) - we know this and we take it into account when
driving.
I know that a car will slide if I put my brakes on too hard on snow so I drive in a diferent way to accomodate this.
My main car has ABS and I know that this will behave differently in snow too so I take it in to account and drive in a different way!!
- easy eh!
one problem is no better or worse than the other in snow - Just Different!!
(Incidently the snow bulding up under the wheels thing doesn't work on packed snow when it has been lying on a road.)
So read the discussions, take advice, ponder your decisions and make them but do not start deciding that you are moraly superior to anyone who has a
different opinion to yourself!!
Rant finnished!!
Sorry but Someone was starting to annoy me.
P.S.
POWER STEERING!! - Are you all mad?
Powersteering is rubbish, people never had power steering in the good old days. You only need power steering if ..........!!
I know this is becoming a dangerous thread, but if I can just throw one thing into the ring. When someone pulls out in front of me at very short
distance, I panic, I mash my foot into the brake pedal and the wheels lock (my cars ABS is broken, but that's another story). I know I shouldn't do
it, I know I should brake smoothly and calmly, and I would stop in a much shorter distance, but when destruction of my car and probably me is staring
me in the face, this is not what I'm thinking about. Granted, I'm sure some of you are track veterans with nerves of steel, or jet fighter pilots, or
whatever, but I'm not, and neither is quite a lot of the population. Admitedly I'm not planning on putting ABS on my locost, which may, after what
I've just said seem foolhardy, but that's my choice.
Kingr (Dons flameproof suit and hides in corner)
Hi all!
I'm sorry that some people took my opinions the wrong way.
My point is/was that learning how to drive with greater skill will always make a better/safer driver of you.
No matter how much technology you put into a car, the most dangerous item is always the driver.
I'm not against ABS! It has it's uses, but I wouldn't use it in a car that I was constructing for it's performance.
To me that defeats the object of the car in the first place.
interestedparty,
Anybody building a GP Spyder is hardly in a position to claim that what they are doing is better than anyone else
Why does my taste in vehicles disqualify me from having an opinion?
Where do I state I am superior to anyone? I always add that it is my opinion.
I'm not the law. I don't dictate what can or can not be done or said, so why should you?
Kingr,
I agree with you, it s a natural reaction to stomp on the brakes and hold them there until it is over. Admitting that it is frightening and that you
no longer have full control of your car is right.
Therefore wouldn't it be better if you could train yourself not to react like that in those circumstances?
You don't need your flameproofs, I think I'm still in the hot seat!
Terry
quote:
Originally posted by Bull
interestedparty,
Anybody building a GP Spyder is hardly in a position to claim that what they are doing is better than anyone else
Why does my taste in vehicles disqualify me from having an opinion?
Where do I state I am superior to anyone? I always add that it is my opinion.
I'm not the law. I don't dictate what can or can not be done or said, so why should you?
any one fitted an ejector seat????
I have repeated a few times that a pedestrian would have been totalled if it were not for abs on my car.
There are way too many drivers on the road who think they are f*"£ing fantastic drivers and the majority of us are not.
Given auntie Marjorie killed your loved one, tossing em over the bonnet at speed cos she never learnt cadence braking at BSM you might wonder if ABS
might have stopped the silly old git from killing your dad / sister / mother etc as they lower them into the ground.
Im not an A1 driver, as most of us are not. If ABS was on my donor, I dont see a reason NOT to use it.
Get yourself in a real life
"fuck, that woman just walked out in front of me and im doing 60 and have no time to stop"
situation.
That was me. That would be one dead bitch if my BMW didnt have ABS.
Call that me as a crap driver, or the DOT being wrong not to teach us all to drive like the Mc Crae brothers.
Simple common logic and knowledge of the average shyte driver on our roads can onlt make ABS a good thing.
ATB
Steve
No offence taken mind
[Edited on 7/11/02 by stephen_gusterson]
quote:
If you watch the motoring programs on TV you will see that the first thing they do when test driving an exotic car is to switch of the ABS and traction control.
Work it out for yourself!
Terry
ps. not meant as an attack on Steve, just my opinion.
[Edited on 6/11/02 by Bull]
BTW
I havnt taken offence - im probably one of the more robust attitudes on here!
However, one thing that concerns and worries me about locost builders I have seen on TOL and to a lesser extent here, is the attitude that they are
such a great driver, and how they can go fast at the ragged edge and corner like shyte, all on a public road.
On a track day, fine. But then i dont feel like putting the car I spent so long building amougst people taking those risks.
I have been in a formula first at silverstone. It was great. You could go as fast as you dared. We were all driving in the same direction, no hedges,
bushes or ditches or blind bends.
When I did push it too far, the back spun out without warning. I simply picked it up again and drove on as there was a nice big run off area.
I didnt hit a kerb, break the front suspension, carrer across the road, and hit a tree or something coming the other way.
A car that does 0-60 in 6 or so seconds would need a lot of skill and discipline. If you think you are a genius driver, you might find that bend you
have never been around one day just that little too fast.
Thing is, we would never know if you got killed. It would just be like 'hey, Freds not posted for a while'.
Seems extreme, but a lot of power encourages it to be used. I wonder why a subaru impretza costs more to insure than an average family car of same
cost.......the power leads generally to more accidents.
Just take a look at those really gory ferrai pics that were posted by Interestedparty - Just might act as an illustration of how bad things can go
wrong.
http://www.amplus.com.br/crashed/ferrari/ferrari1.htm
FOR THE NUBIES ON THIS SITE PLEASE BE VERY AWARE THAT THESE PICS ARE EXTREMELY GRAPHIC. YOU WILL BE LOOKING AT A FERRARI IN SMALL PIECES, AND THE PILE
OF BODY PARTS THAT USED TO BE THE PASSENGER. THATS NOT SAID FOR EFFECT EITHER. YOU HAVE BEEN INFORMED.
Does a 355 have ABS BTW ?
atb
steve
[Edited on 7/11/02 by stephen_gusterson]
[Edited on 7/11/02 by stephen_gusterson]
Steve, we hear you! But going back to your original post when you gave two instances of where ABS has saved your bacon it reads to me as if the ABS
stopped your car quicker. I obviously dont know the facts of either scenario but I do know this; unless your car is equipped with the latest
generation EBS, (a la the crap they test on Drivel) anti-lock brakes do not slow the car down any quicker than four locked up wheels. The term
anti-lock brakes is not strictly correct. In an emergency stop, the system senses wheel lock and releases the brakes. As soon as the system senses the
wheels are turning again, it re-applys them to the same pressure as the start point, and the wheels lock again, and so on. So in effect it is
switching between locked up wheels and virtually no brakes at all, but happening numerous times a second. In a straight line at least, stopping
distance for an ABS equipped car can actually be a few yards more. As I stated before, the only real benefit of ABS is that the anchors can be slapped
on and the driver will still have directional control, but to be fair that is only of use if you have to brake hard mid corner. Swerving isnt
necessarily the best option, and ABS lets you do exactly that.
The latest generation EBS systems work out how much brake force can be applied to each individual wheel without locking them and not to cause pulling
to one side or another. These systems do decrease stopping times.
But, at the end of the day mate, it really is good to see people like yourself put the effort into making this type of thing work on a Locost. Make it
happen!
Cheers, Stu.
Have a read of this. There is something to support everyones argument here.
BTW - in both cases I did take avoiding action that the abs helped with, and yes towards the centre of the road. But nothing was coming. That would be
daft.
atb
steve
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/equipment/absbrakes.html
Steve,
I'm not saying to you or anyone not to use ABS.
If you want it use it.
I assumed (maybe wrongly) that because all/most on this forum are building their own cars they would be interested in driving it to the best of their
abilities.
The cheapest modification with the greatest result is to the driver.
Me, I'm passionate about cars and driving!
Maybe that is just me and my problem!
I will go on any and all driving courses available to try and learn new techniques and skills.
And no I don't have to drive like a rally driver to benefit from what I learn. Personally I think you can never learn/know enough about any
subject.
Whoops!Here I go again!
I'll shut up on the subject now, and I'm glad you didn't take offence!
Terry
I have come in at a late date but have you considered why Formula 1 cars have ABS and Traction? Its because Electronics are by far quicker than a
human and they always will be. No matter how good you are at breaking, ABS will always beat you .
Sorry, I didn't mean to fuel the fire !
[Edited on 11/9/02 by P38420]
That's funny, it was my recollection that it was banned at the end of 1993, williams ran it, no one else bothered.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
DTM cars had ABS.
(German Toring Cars).
At six pages, is this the longest thread ever?
And just about ABS, which only 3 - 4 builders are doing!
atb
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
At six pages, is this the longest thread ever?
And just about ABS, which only 3 - 4 builders are doing!
atb
Steve
Depends what settings you've got in your profile page thing.
You can set how many posts on one page.
do i get a prize for startin the longest thread
all i wanted was a yes or no its not worth the hassle
so sorry for startin all this
[Edited on 10/11/02 by johnston]
I will let you know next time I have to brake like crap!
The extra work is basically
1. Stripping out the loom and leccys from donor.
2. Mounting the abs block transversely because its big and long.
3. Modifying hubs from the donor to fit the car. Need to make different wishbones too. This would be similar for anyone not using cortina hubs.
Thats about it really - simple easy to wire and pipe up system.
HOWEVER one thing I have learnt (and my car is a totally non book one!) is that any deviation from the book is gonna cost you time!
I would have finished a std car long ago.
ATB
Steve
[Edited on 10/11/02 by stephen_gusterson]
ok my plans are so far
volvo 240 est donor
torsion bar front springs
hopefully full body work (inspired by alan b )
so is that clos enough to the book
I am desiging the electrical circuit on a V6 Locost and when I install it I will put ABS on the car.
It'll be switchable though
Many small sports car makers do not fit ABS. I've heard that they generally can't afford to develop it for their small volumes. This implies it's
harder than you think. Apparently the systems need to be made to suit not only a cars weight but also its wheel sizes. ABS is generally thought to
make pedal feel slightly worse due to the need for extra bits in the brake system.
Just for interest the trick is not to prevent a wheel from locking up or to keep it rolling. These are popular wrong ideas about ABS. One of the
strange things about rolling contacts (of which I have years of experience in dealing with) is that a certain amount of skid actually increases grip.
So braking is best with a wheel that is partly rolling and partly skidding.
Unfortunately this situation is very unstable and transient so the best compromise is to slam on the brakes thus inducing ever increasing skid and
grip until the tyre lets go and total skidding and wheel locking is imminent and then release the brake and start again.
This is what ABS and cadence braking do. They keep the tyre passing through its maximum grip point, just before it stops partly skidding and breaks
away completely. The skidding and rolling bit is a red herring, it's the grip that counts and you get grip with a mixture of skidding and rolling.
The overall resultant braking force for intermittent maximum force separated by skidding and reapplication of the brakes is equal to the best that
could be acheived by keeping the brakes continuously at the point just below the transient high grip point.
So ABS won't actually stop you any quicker than expert none ABS braking.
It looks like it isn't a goer for the lowcost though.
Totally irrelevant but related....I just designed a machine for
assembling ABS sensors.......
Sorry big pic...
I hope that's just a prototype, Alan, 'cos I can spot loads of mistakes, for instance, the squeezing things are back to front, and the hopper where
you put the flour in is too narrow for a half-hundredweight bag to go in and the bit where the operator rests his feet needs to be a bit higher etc
etc
John
That's funny you say that John, because all custom machines are prototypes really
And yes....a few mistakes....
You may have 1000 design decisions to make....get 990 right and you are doing well.......then hope you can fix the last 10..........
quote:
Originally posted by cymtriks
Many small sports car makers do not fit ABS. I've heard that they generally can't afford to develop it for their small volumes. This implies it's harder than you think
It looks like it isn't a goer for the lowcost though.