wasn't sure whether to put this under chassis, donor, engine, bec, middie or race section, so put it here instead.

I have the opportunity to buy an old formula ford 1600 without an engine or gearbox (already gone) it is very reasonably priced and apart from engine+box very complete, with some spares.

The price of a transaxle box and engine to return it to it's original state seems relatively high for what it'd be worth, so I'm considering buying it to drop a bike engine in the back on a sierra dif with custom driveshafts.

Having searched the web, the main places to run it apart from trackdays would be in hill climbs, sprints or the odd semsec round.

It'd turn out to be quite a quick car, though might need a big bike engine to fit into some of the classes. It would qualify for classic ff1600 if with original engine + box but is an older car for the class it would be eligable for and hence would never be competitive.

Anyone got any opinions/advise/suggestions?

Ned.

This question has so many answers doesn't it......
I guess it depends on your own aspirations and how valuable the car is, both to you and to the general 'market' if you like.
I actually see at least three options
1) Xflow and hewland - just like original
2) bike engine - just like a great many people are now doing with obsolete ff1600 chassis these days, usually adding wings in the process.
3) some other longitudinal car based engine / transaxle combo.

I would go for option 3 because err.....well for no other reason than it interests me most for such a project.
You could have...


1) An alfa boxer engine from either a 33 or 'sud with it's original transaxle. Ideally a 1600 running 16 valve heads which I believe is possible through a combination of cranks and bore sizes. This would suit the class break in most speed events.

2) Any Subaru flat 4 of your choosing onto an original fwd box from an early subaru or a later box with a welded up diff - too complicated sounding for me.

3) My own personal favourite for such a chassis would be a golf 16 valve engine onto a passat / Audi 80 transaxle. Plenty powerful enough to start with and cheap enough in all the breakers for the engine and the box. On webers of course.


Of all these, the alfasud gives you the easiest solution for brakes as they are inboard, just like the originals would have been. Also bear in mind you don't need to sort out final drive using chain driven diffs or any such expensive nonsense if you use any of the car derived solutions, whereas you would if you go for a bike engine.

How much did you say the budget would be for such a project ? ......

The car is available for £600. it'll only be worth £3k or less with hewland box and a crossflow, the hewland box costing well over £1k to get hold of.

I am thinking of a bike engine inline, coupled pretty much directly to a sierra dif. it'd have to be a low ratio dif from a diesel or such like, fitted with an lsd. I'd need a couple of drive shafts made up by a local engineering firm which wouldn't be too hard, i'd be using existing readily available lobro joints etc.

I think i'd want to go bike engine to keep the weight to a minimum. I have just aquired a 6' damaged carbon fibre wing that can be cut to suit as well.

All that i'd need to do with the chassis is weld up the engine frame and borrow a knackered hewland case from a friend to ensure the wishbone geometry remains as originally intended.

Ned.

Sounds like youve got it sorted, whens your first race and no you cant have your diff back, but Ive got a 3.9

wasnt the hewland just a VW box upside down?

John,

the boxes casing is an upside down beatle casing, but the internals are very different.

Ned.

maybe i mean beetle.

[Edited on 1/6/04 by ned]

Ned the fella I used to work for prob has a few hewland boxes, but dont ask me what kind of nick there in or how much he would part with one for, but can give u his phone no if your daft enough to want to ask him. He has a 40 ft truck full of formula fords and had oodles of spares
Shug.

[Edited on 1/6/04 by Hugh Paterson]

Ned,

What are you dong for brakes ?

Any single seater upright you care to mention will probably have no provision for a disk and caliper as they all mostly used the hewland in ones of it's many flavours with the inboard brakes.
Obviously it would be easy to use some MK uprights and disc brakes I guess all hanging from a subframe with your sierra diff in it.
Any thoughts ?

Zilspeed,

I haven't looked at the car yet to check, but if (as you suspect) it has inboard brakes then I'd probably adapt what it has, possibly mounting a different bell for the disks off the sierra bolt in shafts on the inboard end by the dif, then make up brackets for hanging the calipers.

The car is the same as this picture, but is the model from 1 year earlier. I believe it has rocker inboard as opposed to push rod suspension.



Ned.


[Edited on 2/6/04 by ned]

You could use a beetle gearbox. Its readily available, cheap. It could do with putting super gears in as the teeth on the standard box are quite fine. That way you can easily replicate suspension geometery.

Is the engine a stressed member. I.e. is the engine a integral part of the chassis. I believe that many formula ford chassis use this principal like in F1. If this is the case fitting a bike engine may be difficult as major chassis re-work is required. Take a look at the IJAL engine bay pics in my archive to get an idea of what can be done.

Andy

I need to go take a look at it, but i think it has a frame round the engine which could be added to to give engine mounts and rear suspension frame.

I'm struggling to find classes/championships that a bike engined single seater could race in. So far I've found the various sprint/hillclimb events and the lydden/semsec series.

anyone know where else you could run a bike engined single seater apart from trackdays?

Ned.

[Edited on 2/6/04 by ned]

Other than the semsec you are going to struggle finding a class. A formula ford with a well sorted bike engine should be very competitive in semsec.
Maybe the Castle Coombe GT series. It is full of very serious kit and you may need to put a little extra body work on. So maybe not the class for you thinking about it actually!
It would make a good sprint or hillclimb car, I don't know about you but all that time and money for 25secs of fun doesn't seem right...

thats my problem. i just don't fancy putting a xflow back in it and not sure i could justify the cost to myself as a trackday toy, especially when i have the locost already.. hm.

another thought is to cut it down the middle and widen it. then it would be a 2 seater, so could be used for 750mc rgb if i got it sva'd, sports1000, semsec sports cars, northern sportscars, britsports and other stuff.. though a lot more work...

Ned.

I completely forgot about sports 1000! In principle its a good idea however grids are low and you would need to fit a live axle. Like you say its a lot of work.

If it was going to be an RGB I do believe that an SVA is not required but it must be able to pass an MOT. I also think that at least 5 must have been produced or in production .I.e. no specials.

The other 750 class that you could run is Formula 4. These are all just single seaters. They have recently opened a new class to allow the use of the honda 1100 cbr engine. The Blackbird I think. You could then put some wings and slicks on and run it there.

You said previously that you would use the sierra diff. This is probably a bit big and bulky for a little car like are Formula Ford. Quaife make an ATB diff which chain sprockets are bolted to. A little like the way the original Radical Clubsports were made. For what you get they are not very expensive.

Are you sure you want to do much chopping of the basic chassis ?
It seems that Formula Ford chassis go through a period of being worthless after they are no longer competitive. They all become eligible for classic racing eventually. You could do a lot worse than buy it and sit on it for a while

I believe it may already have classic status. The BARC class is called 'Classic FF1600' or is it a later chassis?

Ned at the risk of sounding negative, I know of lots of FF1600 that are kicking around cause no one wants em anymore
I still find it laughable at the kind of money people want for them, in truth they are whacked out after two seasons and 20 year old ones are a bag of bolts. might be better to stick to a locost or build one just fer racing with the 750 club
Shug

well. i still think it's worth the moeny the guy wants for it, the steering racks and some other components would be worth that alone. there's always formula 4 or formula 750 too.

still pondering..

Ned.

You could always build a Terrapin!

David

On the subject of transmissions, do Subaru do a non-4wd version of any of their cars? IF so the tranny from that'd probably do as the crank is North-South in them. Better still, if you fancy the craic fit a Scooby turbo motor as well

Yes, they do a 1.6 fwd one with a transaxle. Hook that up to a 300bhp 2.0 turbo from an Sti and you'll be flying.

Adam

if the dif doesn't break..

thats an interesting idea, cos they also have a very low CoG. does the gearbox stand a chance against 300 horses and a lead boot too? is the gearbox a definate fit?

a mate says that legacy engines have a better water jacket than impreza engines, and can have impreza heads and gubbins fitted to them. Anyone know owt about this?!