Well further to my wheel coming off the other week I've been let down by the cra again.
I went out in it a few nights ago and felt the clutch pedal kind of slip a bit and it developed free play in it so I came home and left it.
I had a look yesterday and there was some free play in the clutch actuating arm that comes out of the clutch cover. I played about with it and it seemed to reposition itself with no free play so I oiled the cable whilst I was at it and took the missus for a spin again to try it out.
Got a few miles up the road, pressed the clutch and bang. It stuck to the bulkhead and we came to a halt and stalled it. I had a look at the side of the road and the arm has been somehow over pulled so that the little notch has now widened at its shoulders. This is the 5th one at £16 each! Fortunately I had an old one with me that I had welded and fettld with. This got me nearly home but thanks to a red traffic light gave up also so I ended up pushing the thing with the missus in it up a side street and through a pathway that was bollarded before rolling back into my own street with the hazards on.
Another let down on what I believe a really badly designed part

Very frustrating for you, but don't give up hope.


Presumably these are relatively robust in the motorcyle, so:
Is it operated very differently in you car to the standard bike install, i.e. angle of pull?
Do you have a pedal stop?


You will sort it out.

Matt

I'd be looking if, when the lever has reached the end of it's throw/stop, has the pedal still not hit it's stop. That would mean you'd be putting extra force on the lever at every gear change. It wouldn't take long to break it.

have you got a photo of it?

adrian

ps. The common factor in your breakdowns is Mrs Grumpy....

[Edited on 23/8/10 by adithorp]

post photo of the clutch are and where it is snapping - I am sure the locostbuilders collective brain should solve this one.

is it lack of endstops?

I do now have a pedal stop due to the number of times I've been let down in the past. The pedal can't slip past it so I think that can be ruled out.
The angle of the pull is different from the bike in that the cable is in a big spiral now but it is clamped by a holder on the lead to the clutch arm so that a fairly straight pull is maintained there. I also have a Venhill cable which is super smooth.
Apart from the missus being the cause my thoughts are :
Possible slight angle on the arm being pulled due to sticking cable nipple in the holder
Cable is secured around the engine bay with plastic P clips and it might have slipped a bit altering the cable
I'm still overpulling the arm slightly and need to alter the pedal stop further

I was thinking later on of trying to work out actually how much does the arm have to turn before the clutch would disengage and not drag. If I could measure it on a running bike or else measure the travel of the pressure plate on the clutch basket.
I've no photos to hand as I'm off to bed again for a bit ready for nights and the neighbours on his drive ready to talk for England and I can't risk that
Thanks for the tips though so far. It's disappointing as I was just building up some confidence in it and was thinking of my first big run out to the Stafford show in a few weeks

I have set mine so the cable pulls in 15mm after the slack has been taken up, frees off nicely.
Think I got the info on LB a few years ago.

Cheers for that. Very helpful.

I've set it to 15mm now and when I press the clutch it'll engage but I get a bit of a horrible whirring so I think I'll let it back to around 16mm-17mm but otherwise, yes. I had it set at 20mm.
I've welded and filed my old arms now so I've 5 as back up now

Well resurrected this as I taxed and insured the car at the start of the month and have, over the Winter replaced the clutch pedal mount and redone the interior and tarted the engine bay up so I've just tried to set the clutch cable up and nipped out for my first drive of the year and guess what? Let down again!! For some reason I first couldn't select any other gear than 1st and then when I drove up an incline to roll backwards and turn back, it didn't want to roll with the clutch depressed and stalled and that was it. Wouldn't start again. I pushed it for a while then remembered that when I start it initially, after disconnecting the battery I have to firstly disconnect the rectifier, so I did it again and it started up and I crawled back in 1st gear, then stalled at home!
I restarted but it felt like clutch plates were stuck and it kept lurching when I put it into 1st and stalling so it's back in the garage for another day when I can be arsed again to look at it!

Sounds like you are not getting enough movement at the clutch actuator arm, to get maximum movement with minimum strain the actiating lever should be at 90 degrees to cable with the clutch fully depresed. A little over 90 degrees is ok, but you don't want the two pulling nearly straight.

Yes I know. I carry 5 spares now due to past overpulling experiences.(!) I knackered another tonight setting it up when I went a bit too far so backed off again. It feels alright one minute then it'll stick all of a sudden.

Are you sure the cable isn't frayed and snagging anywhere, or stretching?

Or another thought, is your engine earth ok? it could be earthing through the cable, result is when you start the car the cable gets hot, the plastic coating melts, and causes sticking.

No cable clutch is fairly new still. A Venhill one with PTFE liner. Top piece of kit. Engine is earthed in 3 places!

Has to be the actuator then, have you checked the 'thrust bearing' end for wear, and hence not enough movement of the plates??

Yep this has been checked a few times as I suspected the same too. That's why I'm confused.

I'd be getting rid of the P clips and just letting the cable find it's own route, neither my Blade or R1 have any restraint on them and they just gently curve from the clutch arm towards the radiator then towards the pedal in an nice gentle arc.

tony

I'b be posting some pictures of the clutch pedal and the cable mounting on the engine. There must be something fundamentally wrong with the setup to be having so many issues.

Davie

Pictures!!
cmon man get them up so we can see and hopefully solve the problem. Many of us are not bike orientated so cannot envisage your problem.

I'll give it a try in a bit. I've a bit of an issue with the camera and computer but I'll get my tea then have a go. Thanks fellas.

Here goes with a few pictures. Had to take them on the mobile as the camera had a flat battery on top of the rest.

Here's the pedals. The cable comes through the bulkhead and is threaded through a bolt which is in turn through a hole in the bottom of the pedal and is free to turn as the pedal is pressed. Not ideal but I haven't had any sort of mileage out of it to encourage it to snap and I hope to alter this soon after seeing someone elses effort on here a few days ago.




Here's the engine bay from above. The clutch cable routing isn't clear but you can just about see it to the left of the picture running above the red battery. It basically comes from the pedal and loops around at the front in a full circle and back onto the clutch arm.




Clutch arm sticking out of clutch case with cable attached. I have it pulling towards the left somewhere between 17mm-20mm. I'd like to alter this as the cable nipple is tight in the arm and of a different shape to the original part which had a neck to it and stopped it jumping out of the mounting point. Hence the reason I put a cable tie around it to stop it jumping out. I don't normally have it coming out of that bolt on the left at such an angle, it's normally straight out so it doesn't rub.




This is the shape of the clutch arm. It runs inside the clutch case which has a needle bearing set up at the top and at the bottom (basically either side of that waisted portion) to stop it jumping around and you can see the notch in the end (this one being overpulled and enlarged). This notch goes over an actuator which has a top hat shape on the end and it pulls against the hat rim and separates the plates.




Here is a comparison of two clutch arms. The top being a good one with a straight notch, the bottom being overpulled and the notch is enlarged.




The cable itself is a Venhill and smooth as you like and the pedal mount has been redone to alter the ratio so theres less chance of overpulling and I have a pedal stop fitted.
As I said for some reason, all of a sudden after sitting during Winter I can't select any gear above 2nd whilst moving. It doesn't roll back with the clutch depressed without stalling. The biggest problem then being that if I hold the clutch down and press a false neutral button I have fitted to fool the car into thinking it's in neutral. I press the start button and it lurches like the clutch isn't disengaged.

Any thoughts would help as I don't have time to prod about until tomorrow evening.
Thanks

have you used one of those vhs recorders to get that sort of quality?

If you're using a barrel type solderless nipple at the clutch end try filling a flat on the top and bottom to get it to sit in the holder, nothing wrong with mounting it that way, mines like that and has been for 4 years with no probs,
Have you by any chance changed the clutch plates or springs, if so would suggest you revert back just to see what happens, had a similar problem with the Blade once when I fitted heavy duty springs .

Tony

Could it be a fault with the clutch itself? It might be worth stripping the clutch down, checking and inspecting all the components and ensuring it's assembled correctly. Something's not quite right and it doesn't sound like a cable or actuator issue....

Phil

It is a barrel solderless nipple. I have filed it down a bit but will do it a bit more thanks.
I have uprated the clutch springs, yes, to Barnett ones. This did cross my mind as an aggravating factor.
The clutch plates have been taken off and the basket and stuff inspected literally somewhere around 7-10 times due to another problem I had in the past which I solved and I know it's all been reassembled correctly.
I'm wondering whether to just bite the bullet and open the clutch case up again tomorrow evening and take a look inside and maybe change the clutch springs back over to the originals.

It just seems strange that the plates are feeling stuck after running fine for a short distance and the gears not changing.

I think you need to have a look at the clutch itself

I suspect something is stopping the plates coming apart cleanly

Hence it dragging ang breaking cables as you overpress it to compensate

Yes. I think I'll have too. What a pain but I suspect the plates are sticking somewhat, just intermittently.

I know it's a different motor but on my early Blade motor there are 3 different length clutch springs
N to S 45.5mm
T and V 50.2mm
W and X 48.8mm
but if you ask a dealer for heavy duty clutch springs no-one ever asks what model and the common one you get is 50.2mm which from bitter experience locks the clutch solid.
If you had no problems before go back to original setup and out of curiosity measure the lengths it should only be the thickness of the material used that is different. problem must be in the clutch itself.

Tony

Ah that's interesting because off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure that the springs are different lengths. The newer, uprated ones being longer.

I you want another pair of eyes to look over your car I can come over.

Cheers Joe. Much appreciated.

I'll lay money on it that it's the springs becoming coil bound before they have chance to disengage the clutch and as you're pressing against something that isn't going to give any more something else is going to give, keep us informed please.

tony

Well I've had a look and there seems to be one or two things but not sure what the principle cause is.
The uprated clutch springs are the same length but notably harder to compress but I can only find 3 of the originals for some reason
Here's a picture of the clutch rod. The notch in the clutch arm ^^ locates beneath the top hat as said and pulls it, which in turn releases the clutch plates.




Now when I looked today I noticed a small burr on the shoulder outlined in red. This must have happened when I originally started this thread as I seem to recall stripping it not long before that run. Anyway it prompted me to look at pictures of replacements to see if I could simply de burr it and I discovered that the end should be square and not have the shoulder that mine has.
A further look compared against the clutch arm has shown that the notch isn't quite wide enough on most of my spares. This would be my fault as instead of buying new ones because I knackered so many I just welded and shaped the notch and I haven't quite got it all an equal width. They need filing more.
I'm wondering if maybe the uprated springs have perhaps added a little more stress onto the clutch rod and caused it to wear prematurely.
So I'm really excited now as I may have finally solved this clutch problem that I've had since building it and typically I can't order the replacement part until Tuesday now and I'm on nights next week. Typical!

Been trying to find an exploded view of a zx9 clutch to try and get an idea how it works, came across this article, http://www.fixya.com/motorcycles/t2629497-kawasaki_ninja_zx9r_clutch_problem

tony

Yep. Oddly enough that's the post I found and noticed the square section end that set me off looking more.

Looks like your clutch works the same way as the Blade, are all the plates in correctly the blade has an odd one that goes on first and a shake proof washer, is the bearing in the clutch basket cover in good nick ( the cover that the 6 or 7 springs hold on )

Tony

Well. just a quick update. After a week of nights I finally refitted the clutch rod that was worn and put the original springs back on and have just managed to nip out around the block after it started raining last night
The clutch feels solid now, more so than before. I held the clutch in a few times which usually resulted in a graunching noise and nothing.
I've got it in my head now that it was the uprated springs that were causing the issue. I replaced them before I'd fitted the engine or started it and in hindsight should have only done so if the clutch was slipping I think so cheers all for the advice, much appreciated.
Chuffed to bits

misterhappy? Nice one!

Made up for you, love richards comment about Misterhappy Now get out there and enjoy it

Tony

Have to admit that I was bobbing myself at the thought of having to push it back again but this time with the rain due. Just felt a lot more engaged. Just have to wait for the weather now
Thanks again all.