Hi , is anyone building or has built an autotune gemini,i would be very inerested in thoughts and findings on this car, all comments welcome,thanks in advance ,,john,

Gary and Nick at Bath Performance Cars have one that they use for track days. They're very helpful and chatty, I'm sure they'd be worth talking to.

isnt one of the build diary people on complete kit car magazine building one ? they might have contact details ?

Hi John

TimC on here has done some research into these I believe. Try dropping him a U2U. He's off on a round the world trip though so may not reply to you quickly!

Regards

Wyn

lol TimC bought his kit off me I would have built it but for a baby arriving and needing all my spare cash (and baby's are better than kit cars no matter what anyone says ) Lovely looking cars and Autotune are nice people to deal with - what do you want to know? u2u me if you want?

I've got one but there are a few problems with me giving you advice:
1, It's my first kit car so although fairly knoweldgable with mechanical stuff I've little to compare this to.
2, I bought it as an unfinished project.
3, I'm really struggling to find time to work on it & as such havnt really done much with it yet (I think I earn somewhat below the average wage for those on this site but do have a decent workshop so find it difficult to turn jobs down!).

But what I do know is I think the quality seems reasonably good, the welds on the chassis are better than much that I've seen on cars at shows & workmanship in general seems good but the mould seam joins on the body are going to need a fair bit of work.
I sat in a few seven type & similar cars & found them a bit tight but this seems to have a bit more room (I'm near 6ft & 14 stone so not massive but bigger than average).
I know the previous owner got helpful information from Autotune.
Mabye more a matter of personal taste but I think they're a fantastic looking little car!

thanks everyone its a car ime very keen on they seem quite rare, but better still no negative comments, great

Hi

Does anyone know of an Autotune Gemini project car for sale? (not a new kit!)

Thanks
Mike

Hello,

Yes, I'm building one although the project, as Wyn suggests, is currently on-hold while I travel. Rather than repeat myself, my blog [Link below] contains all of my thoughts to date. That said, my build will be pretty atypical as I'm going racing and fitting a bike motor.

Regarding the comments about the mould marks, they can be suppled polished-out but at extra cost. One other fprum member has told me that he had to cut and adjust the GRP around the rear bulkhead but as far as I've been able to tell, this is not the norm.

Cheers

Tim
(Currently in a 'tinterweb kiosk in Rotorua, NZ.)

enjoy your travels ,i will watch your blog with interest, no rush for me as i am still gathering parts,ie xflow type9 english lsd etc,also saving for chassis at the same time. thanks for the reply, john,

Hi John,

I'm another who's building a Gemini.

I'm two years in and at rolling chassis stage - close to getting to a running chassis. Was about half a dozen wires away before the snow arrived a month ago and it's barely been above freezing here since then so I've wimped out and stayed out of the garage.

It's my first kit and I wouldn't consider myself anywhere near an expert!!

Kit is a good basic kit and requires a bit of self fabrication to complete - which is part of the reason I went for it - I didn't want a giant meccano set that just bolted together. Nothing too demanding just a lot of decisions to make and issues to work through. Lots of adapting parts from various sources or making them yourself - as I did with a home made heater box. It's all part of the fun!

Oh - and I think it looks gorgeous... in the flesh it looks even better than it does in photos.

One of the reader builds in CKC magazine for the last year or so has been a Gemini and that series is worth a look as well.

Richard, Carolyn and Anthony at Autotune are all great and are worth a call. As well as the kits they run a number of classic sportscars including a Can Am McLaren which they've run at Goodwood.

Hope that helps!

thanks embraboy , looks like your well on your way, get some more photos posted, also i know how cold it is up there as i am a regular to edinburgh,driving the MEGABUS up through the borders. i will scream for help when i start mine, hopefully this time next year, john,

i´m also owning a Gemini. (live axle, x/flow, technically based an an ford escort)

recently i recognized something strange with my rear suspension:

between the axle and the longitudual chassis tube is only around 10mm space.

i marked the area red in the picture.
the picture shows the car during built at the former owner.
coil-platforms completely lowered, therefore the space between chassis and axle is more.

with the body fixed the platforms are set around 50mm higher which automatically brings the chassis tube nearer to the axle, otherwise the wheels would rub inside the rear wings.

so what is wrong here?


what spring length and spring rates do you have fitted or is there any recommendation from autotune?



comparing this picture here:

http://www.log-rover.co.uk/Other%20motors/1992%20Autotune%20Gemini%20Kitcar/slides/Rolling%20chassis.html

looks similar...also the left side of the axle is slighty nearer the chassis tube than the right side...same as mine.

[Edited on 19/10/11 by alfas]

Hi

Measured from the lowest point of the chassis at the back, what is the rear ride height?

Also, what offset wheels and size tyres are you using?

As I see it, assuming that the body is correctly mounted, that's the only contributing factors that I can think of.

There are certainly some Geminis with rear tyres tucked right into the arches.

I'd e-mail Richard at Autotune. He's very helpful.

6x13 minilites (offset i dont know right now)
tyres 185/70R13

the tyres are rubbing NOT outside on the wings...so from the width i´m fine. they are rubbing centraly inside the wings when the axle moves up. (mostly only when driving with a passenger...which doesnt happen very often)


going down to 185/60R13 would help a little bit but this would make the final ratio shorter, also bring the complete car lower (ground clearance problems, the shortend oilsump and bellhousing are already very low)


what exactly do you mean with ride height measured from the lowest chassis point?

to where should i measure this height?

[Edited on 20/10/11 by alfas]

[Edited on 20/10/11 by alfas]

I mean the distance between the road/floor and the lowest point on the chassis.

the panhard rod bracket looks the lowest. the distance from bottom of the bracket to floor is 120mm

[Edited on 20/10/11 by alfas]

[img][/ img]

Hmmm. I'm struggling to be much help. I've been looking at other examples to see how their tyres fit - I do wonder if you're running the wrong offset.






I'd certainly e-mail Richard - info@autotuneuk.com

[Edited on 21/10/11 by TimC]

the offset has nothing to do with my problem.

the problem is the distance between the axle-tube and the chassis.

10mm space for rebound is not enough, even i´ve expirienced on some earlier westfields that there was only 15 to 20mm space..which is also not enough...but they came like that from the factory.

by the way: i already tried 5.5" 4spoke-revo´s with 185/60r13. the problem with rubbing inside the wheel arches was slightly better but the bottom of the bellhousing was too near the floor. on the exit of my yard there is a slight step, i always touched the floor with the bellhousing.

[Edited on 20/10/11 by alfas]

comparing those 2 pictures with mine the cars height look identical:

at front there is a lot of space between the tyre and the wheelarch and on the rear those cars sit quite low. looks realy identical to my car.

the only way to get the chassis tube lower (therefore gaining space between axle and chassis) is to lower coil-platforms.

but than the car sits even lower on the back.
normally the suspension should have a wedge-shape: front lower than back.

but it seems that most autotunes have it different, which is from suspension-theory not correct.

To my eye, both the yellow car above and the one below sit quite a bit lower than your car. If you lower the car, you will increase clearance over the chassis tube. However, you will then run into difficulties with the tyres rubbing, agreed?


As such, unless you want to re-engineer the rear set-up, you only have a few options as I see it:

1. Change the tyres
   
2. Change the wheels
   
3. Fit stiffer springs and adjust your shock absorbers
   

those pictured cars sit slightly lower as they do NOT use tyres with a profile of 70.

ok, i can lower the car and compensate it by stiffer springs....but this is contrary what a light, live-axled car needs at the back. normally a (medium) soft set-up is favoured, especially for road use. (there are around 10sylva´s in my area and all are using a soft rear setup, compared to other kitcars). on the other side i must say that most live-axled westfields i´ve driven had been set very hard on the rear axle, but the downside was that the axle never behaved so "nice" as on the sylva´s .

i would really like to know what spring-rates autotune recommends. isnt it mentioned in the built manual (if something like that even exists)


changing the wheels is not necessary as i dont have any clearance problems on the outer side of the wings!!
changing from 70 to 60 profile tyres would help a bit, but than the fornt looks like the wheels get lost inside the arches.

to get more clearance for the bellhousng....yeah the engine could be mounted slightly higher....no problem....although the centre of gravity will be negatively effect with this modification...but i´m not that expert to say if this has a big influance in the roadholding of the car.

have emailed richard, yet.



[Edited on 21/10/11 by alfas]

If the axle is coming into contact with the chassis on full droop your dampers are too long, have too much travel.

the problem is that i dont know which length the dampers/coils should have originally.

comparing built pictures from other cars my dampers look identical.

still have no answer from autotune.

isnt the length mentioned in the built manual? is there existing a built manual?

Hi
I have just got mine throught the IVA and got it registered.
The 10mm space is the same on mine and this the lowest the axle will go due to the length of the dampers which limit the movement. Tthe shocks supplied by Autotune are spaxG775 on the front which I was told are 12,6" open and 10.6" closed.
the rear are G401, 14,4" open and 11.7" closed. the spring rating on the front was 225 and rear 125.
I used Gaz on mine which are 13" open and 9" closed front with 225lb 8" springs and 14" open and 10" closed on the rear with 90/140lb rate 9" . However i have found these springs too soft and need to wind the addjusters way up. I have got some heavier ratings on the way but not yet fitted them. Will let you know if this improves things.

hey...that post is perfect...all the info i need, as autotune has never replied on my email.

thanx a lot!!!!

unfortunately on my car the damper stroke does not limit the axle touching the chassis tube, but it looks like it wouldnt be much until this would happen.

sure is: 10mm rebound is far away from being correct...for me it seems something wrong desingwise.

are you sure with the 125lbs rear coils? thats very soft!!! another design-fault? ( i can also confirm that my car feels too soft on the rear when driven hard on bumpy roads.)

so for me it seems that i will need new dampers (recently the damping adjustment on the left damper gave up) and new, slightly harder coils.

i plan to replace them by 2.25inch damper/coils instead the 1.9" ones autotune supplied originally.

unfortunately i need to keep 1.9" ones at front, because the 2.25 ones would have clearance problems on the upper wishbone. (its already very "tight" with the 1.9" ones)


have your original (spax)coils been marked somewhere with the rate?


sorry, another question: what engine have you fitted and what axle?

[Edited on 4/11/11 by alfas]

was out in the garage at my car tonight:

exactly the same rear dampers:

DF401
Length open 355mm (14inch)

the stroke of the damper finishs exactly when the axle is touching the chassis (on the left side), on the right side i´ve around 5mm space to the chassis tube when the stroke has ended

this damper/coil combination is totally wrong...imo...even when it was suplied like that from autotune!!

[Edited on 4/11/11 by alfas]

Hi
I have fitted my new springs 10" 190lb on the rear and 9" 275lb on the front but as the windscreen is still partially fitted cant give it a test yet but bouncing it on the garge floor seems better and sits better with minor preload on dampers.
I have about 50mm above the chassis when it is unladen now. When axle is hanging down has at least 10mm either side.

One other thing that you need to check is that the front damper is not too long as i found that the lower ball joint was limiting the travel on the suspension. There also appear to be two versions of this lower ball joint with different movemnt on the ball. I think that if the ball would be easily broken if the suspension was at at lowest point and the damper ws not limiting the travel.

Another thing , not sure if you would fit 2.25 dampers at rear as mine seem to be pretty tight in the space already.

"I have about 50mm above the chassis when it is unladen now. When axle is hanging down has at least 10mm either side."

that would mean 40mm rebound, wich sounds better.

have you fitted again 1.9" coils together with your GAZ?

i like the 2.25inch ones, as from my expirience the ride quality seems better also they feel more responsive.

the damper-fit looks also very tight on my car, but i think the main reason it looks tight is the splash-shield/inner wing.

i´ll need to measure again to see if i could fit 2.25" ones.

front looks like this:



originally there was also a clearance problem with upper wishbone and coilover:






[Edited on 5/11/11 by alfas]

@gemini:

which wheel/tyre size you are using?
what engine have your fitted?



in the meanwhile i checked my front dampers, they are the same as yours Spax DK 7.75, open length 325mm (12.8inch)

[Edited on 5/11/11 by alfas]

hi

i am running 6J *14 4*108 ET38 and tyres 175/65 *14. I also have 15mm spacers on the rear as they were catching on the inner wheel arch. Have cutt them out when i changed the springs and will rebond them a bit further in.

I have a 2l ford pinto engine with a 38dgas carb. Had to cut the manifold height down to fit under bonnet without having to make a scoop.

Windscreen nearly finished so maybe get her out on the road next weekend, dependent on the weather of course.

will get some pics and post them during the week.

the same wheel diameter (~585mm) as with my car (but with 185/70r13 tyres)...which i plan to change to 185/60r13 to get more clearance inside the rear wings.

wheels are 6x13 minilites, ET unknown. no spacers, as i have no lateral clearance problems.


pinto is a bit heavier than x/flow...so slightly more weight to the front...so with same springs your car will sit lower at front...mine is rel. high.

waiting on your pictures....

[Edited on 6/11/11 by alfas]

got a reply form Autotune today:

"It looks like you have a chassis where the rear framework underneath the axle was made incorrectly. We have seen this once before many years ago."

"The solution is to cut out the chassis rails that catch directly below the axle and replace them with some 1" x 1/4" steel strip"


thats what i already thought to do, too.....but wanted to avoid as the galvanization would be damaged in that area.

anyway...as i need to fit harder coils, also the daming adjuster on 1 damper gave up recently i will sort this first and, if still necessary, modify the chassis later.

to close the topic:

car has been sold as i found a more interesting project