I wonder if the forum is quieter on the build at the moment as people have less cash to build?
Maybe we need a few inspirational builders making there own chassis and making do with cheaper parts (single donner)?
Do we need a "book" midi locost, plenty of people have had a go but there is to my limited knowledge no plans for people to copy?
I wonder what peoples thoughts are?
Cheers
Dan
[Edited on 14/11/11 by Bluemoon]
It is a shame that there seems to be less locost bulders about but wont that be because of the cost of steel and the donor car?
I built my chassis from plans and a pile of 1" 2.0 box steel (yes i know its a little fat) but it was for a v8 engine.....
The steel box i bought was about £6 for 5 meters. now its £9 plus vat for 16 gauge steel box......
Its such a shame that steel is so expensive as this would reduce the donor cost and everything.
To answer your question no bloody idea.
All I know is that this site has so much value I just wish there was a way to build a easy build diary like a automated system to write it and upload
to net.....
i think a locost mid engine transverse using a fwd donor is the way forward, it will be a lot cheaper
Some one needs to do a book!!!
quote:
Originally posted by josseyI just wish there was a way to build a easy build diary like a automated system to write it and upload to net.....
Likewise, if your web-mail is gmail and your preferred browser is Chrome www.blogger.com integrates really nicely with the rest of your online existence.
Look up formula 750, there is a chassis on there for a mid engined fiat powered car
I'm currently building a Haynes chassis (and complete roadster) from scratch but I'm doing it at work in works time (my company, I can do
what I want within reason!) so it's a bit easier and I have the benefit of getting steel at very good prices. I think the problem is the price of
donor car spares, e-bay and other folks awareness of what something is now worth. I'm not sure it's right to say that you could virtually
'steal' something off someone, but years ago, bargains were there to be had. If someone didn't have a clue what an item was worth, you
made a stupid bid and hoped you got it, which, 9 time out of ten, was the case. People are a lot more savvy than they were then.
To get cheap donor cars now, look at the MX5, they are going for dirt cheap money at the moment but as they become more scarce they will be the Sierra
for the 2000's. The problem appears to be that the book (certainly Haynes) has not been revised so, for people with limited mechanical knowledge,
re-calculating geometry and chassis fabrication details will not be the easiest thing to get to grips with.
The economy obviously doesn't help with people not having the spare cash to lavish on a project. I am keeping a close eye on what my build costs
are but I doubt it will be cheap, just for a toy. Last week I was offered a Westfield with C20xe engine, 220bhp, for £4K so I have to ask myself why
I'm scratch building a car. The main reason is because I want to and can afford to but I do consider myself lucky in this respect.
Forums do get quiet from time to time, let's face it most of us are on them in the daytime when we should be working! On that note I'm going
to get back to my chassis. I've got to have this car complete for end of next spring so I get some track days in. It will also be interesting to
tot up the final bill and scare myself with what I've spent.
Gareth
I'm doing a middy, not with a single doner however, quite the opposite but still with the emphasis on cheap!!
My blog is linked below, though I have slowed somewhat in my progress since the little fella was born and I now have a 150mile round trip to work
every day.
quote:
Originally posted by tomgregory2000
i think a locost mid engine transverse using a fwd donor is the way forward, it will be a lot cheaper
Some one needs to do a book!!!
quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
quote:
Originally posted by tomgregory2000
i think a locost mid engine transverse using a fwd donor is the way forward, it will be a lot cheaper
Some one needs to do a book!!!
I would love to write that book, but would have to give up work to throw first draft on the table in six months. I reckon with the right research and resources it can be done within a year. Thats before publishers, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Bluemoon
quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
quote:
Originally posted by tomgregory2000
i think a locost mid engine transverse using a fwd donor is the way forward, it will be a lot cheaper
Some one needs to do a book!!!
I would love to write that book, but would have to give up work to throw first draft on the table in six months. I reckon with the right research and resources it can be done within a year. Thats before publishers, etc.
I think that's one problem, it's expensive to do. A more "open source" approach may be appropriate and cheap?
^^ Tend to agree but as I see it the locost is such a success as the chassis plans where common, the IVA stuff is real pain but any decent midi/rear
engined chassis/suspension designed for road use should be IVA'able.. It's more body work and emissions etc, and we already have a wealth of
information in the IVA manual, and on here...
Maybe steel is just to expensive?
Dan
Hmmmmm, i find if ye have a budget, double it, add vat n forget it......
I have tried to be realy tight with building/scorcing parts for a roadster....
I'm a few hundred pounds in and haven't even got a chassis yet...
I am trying to use parts i have kicking about, I have a heap of Peugeot, Land Rover and a few bike bits ....
Engine will be Peug, a 1.9 GTi, the gearbox is from an LDV, the master/slave cylinders and prop is Land Rover and my silencer is off a Gixer.....
I would say that I have saved a small fortune, money to be spent in other places....
Bertie.
I have saved money by sourcing the bits gradually over the last 10 years, though there is a fine line between saving money and a lack of
productivity.
I saved a lot by breaking and selling 2 MX5's that I bought for 350 a pair and by being given the steel as a gift for doing a big favour for
someone. There are cheap routes out there if you have the time to sit and wait for them to come your way.
I have poured a small fortune into buying tools though, you win some you lose some
quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
I have saved money by sourcing the bits gradually over the last 10 years, though there is a fine line between saving money and a lack of productivity.
I saved a lot by breaking and selling 2 MX5's that I bought for 350 a pair and by being given the steel as a gift for doing a big favour for someone. There are cheap routes out there if you have the time to sit and wait for them to come your way.
I have poured a small fortune into buying tools though, you win some you lose some
I dont fit into the Locost bracket - as my chassis was built by NS Dev ....
This decision was not my first choice, as I did really fancy building a Haynes chassis as per the book, as I like welding. But my concern was building
a cock eyed chassis, and a big spend on steel, linked to (at the time) of no driveway and a tiny garage not attached to the house.
A move to a pre built chassis / kit car was removing the risk of getting it wrong personally, while I really fancy bending tubes myself, and joining
them all up - too much chance for me.
There is also a lack of confidence in my ability to construct a Locost car from scratch.
I agree there is possibly an interest in an updated midi chassis using a modern fwd engine setup.
10 years collecting stuff for a build????????????????
IMHO. your car will never turn a wheel in my livetime, and im only 51 y's young
I had always wanted to write a book or publish plans - got to finish the car first though! Hopefully an upcoming job change will make both easier.......
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
10 years collecting stuff for a build????????????????
IMHO. your car will never turn a wheel in my livetime, and im only 51 y's young
there are a whole bunch of people building locosts. most of them reside on the haynes forum though. locostbuilders is mor like kitbuilders these days. although it makes little difference these days with people making/selling locost chassis for peanuts.
I'm quite sure there is interest for it. I reckon the right donor could use a LOT more parts than the current book. I mean for starters you can keep the gearbox
Style = Warner r4 esq
Donor = Focus/mondeo
If its a group design I would be up for doing the back ground work on the engine managment. Diagrams pin outs, instructions ect.
The forum really has moved away from the on mass scratch build but still does have a wide range of skills.
If you read the first book Ron didn't buy the steel for the alleged £250 budget. He claimed to have gone skip diving and scrounging. These days
with the price of scrap that's proper stealing.
On the subject of 'open source' I don't think it would ever work for a 'locost' as everyone want to use difference donor
components, could never decide on what size wheels/tyres to use, wheel base/wheel track, etc etc etc. It has been tried here before but iirc the
author of the first post deleted the thread.
The only way IMO is for someone to do it and then write a book.
But for the sake of discussion, for a proper locost version you'd have to be mad to ignore the Rover 25 as the donor, hundreds out there all
costing peanuts, K series is a lovely engine and very reliable IF looked after and not cooked.
Finally years ago the boss posted a message making it clear this site was targeted at anyone building a car (seem to remember a possible URL change as
well) but that all went quiet.
Anyone else think a MK2 MR2 would make a great donor for a middy Locost?
170BHP (or 240BHP turbo'd) and cheap as chips.
The newest ones are getting on for 15yrs old but there are literally 1000's of them out there.
Solid mechanicals but many starting to get ropey on the body these days, so ideal 
They're 1200kg std and no slouch, so would be great in 600kg Locost form 
I can never make out why people think that steel is expensive.
When you think of what goes into making it I consider it cheap.
If I think of the most expensive items in my scratch build then they would be:-
Wheels & tyres
Shocks
Seats
And still to come, IVA.
Cheers,
Paul G
Oh not not 'car design by internet forum' again it NEVER works lads and it's been tried several times on here as well as elsewhere
(wasn't there a forum to design a new Caterham or something a few years ago?? did they end up all killing each other in the end lol?) It all
starts with great enthusiasm then develops almost instantly into a big row about something really trivial like wheel diameter and goes rapidly
downhill from there. Don't do it 
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
Anyone else think a MK2 MR2 would make a great donor for a middy Locost?
170BHP (or 240BHP turbo'd) and cheap as chips.
The newest ones are getting on for 15yrs old but there are literally 1000's of them out there.
Solid mechanicals but many starting to get ropey on the body these days, so ideal
They're 1200kg std and no slouch, so would be great in 600kg Locost form
quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
Anyone else think a MK2 MR2 would make a great donor for a middy Locost?
170BHP (or 240BHP turbo'd) and cheap as chips.
The newest ones are getting on for 15yrs old but there are literally 1000's of them out there.
Solid mechanicals but many starting to get ropey on the body these days, so ideal
They're 1200kg std and no slouch, so would be great in 600kg Locost form
A slight flaw in that plan.......any design based on an out of production 15 year old car couldnt have more than five years life - much better to pick a car thats been around for a long time , and if possible still being made today .
But...........modern cars only seem to have a production life of 2 or 3 years these days , and proper old fashioned scrap yards are dying out . Add to that the scrappage scheme took thousands of ten year old cars off the roads .
Now I think about it , this aint so simple
Maybe the design could incorporate the idea that a vehicle that's plentiful today might not be easy to find tomorrow, thus if anyone was going to do a book like this I reckon they should have adjustments for donors ranging from a corsa/punto/etc to mondeo/saab/vectra and so on.
Thing is the MR2 engine is still in production, as is the gearbox, and all the parts are still available from dealers fairly cheaply, and a variation
of it is still available today giving more and more options for a build.
If I hadn't gone nuts I'd have gone down that route, it's the obvious donor without a doubt.
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Thing is the MR2 engine is still in production, as is the gearbox, and all the parts are still available from dealers fairly cheaply, and a variation of it is still available today giving more and more options for a build.
If I hadn't gone nuts I'd have gone down that route, it's the obvious donor without a doubt.
I'm pretty sure you could build a 'losost' midi, in the spirit of the Ron Champion book for 3k, even if you buy all the bits (used
where possible). I'm assuming you don't count tools! He wasn't try to get such a light car as people do now too.
When(if) I ever get mine built, and if its dynamically any good to drive, I'll donate the chassis plans and photos to this site. It wouldnt be
hard to adapt for pretty much any engine that's less bulky than a mondeo's zetec and box.
What Ron Champion didn't do, that most people seem to now is include any 'bling'.
No alloy wheels/expensive tyres.
No lightweight brake calipers
Standard engine - no major tuning
No digidash/expensive switches/expensive seats/trim
No roll cage/swirl pot+extra pumps+ catch tanks + modified sumps etc
mild steel exhaust(no cat then), reused seat belts
etc etc
'Uncle' Ron even seems to have re-used brake hoses and got his aly sheet by cutting up scrap transits etc.
The steel for a locost midi, assuming you buy full lengths of tube from a steel merchants, then scout for offsuts for the 3mm plate or buy just enough
from ebay is about £250-£300
Ally for floor+body panels £150
Donor mondeo 1.8 or 2.0 for engine/gearbox/induction side inc air box+exhaust manifold/driveshafts/rear wheel bearings/cable change/gear lever/fuel
pump+pipes, some hoses, handbrake lever, instrument panel + some switchgear, seat belts, exhast mout rubbers/cat/fan/expansion tank, hoses, heater
matrix+fan, ....£350, 150 back on scrap for the shell at present - 250 to refurb inc clutch..
mx5 front uprights+calipers/discs+rear caliperaa/pads/discks +refurb + wiper motor £170
steering column/cowl/wheel £100
rack + adapters...100
rad (new)+ hoses from scrap yard £80
shocks + spring - the most expensive bit £400
nuts and bolts, if you have a decent local wholesaler+scavenge from your donor £80
fibreglass bodywork - made yourself £400
brake master cylinder+fluid+resevoir +pipe/fittings and satndard non braded hoses from a motor factor £100
Clutch mc+ hydraulics from donor/included with brakes
throttle cable £10
trim materials - bench type seats £75
rivets, sikaflex, drill bits £50
lights £150
screen,wash, wiper controls (mx5? from scrappies) £125
fuel tank (pump/level transmiter etc) from donor. £125
exhaust/car £175
seat belts £0 - from donor
paint £50 (hammerite chassis)
SVA bits £50
bushes for suspension+ball joints...£80
build table £80
grille - modify from scrappies? 20
There you go - comes to about £3200!
Then later on you add the alloy wheels, tune the engine etc
Regards
Hugh
I think it is truely possible to reduce cost by extending the build time. Im currently a final year Uni student and im building mine as and when i
have the cash flow available. I find keeping a close eye on ebay for the deals on parts is essential.
As for the price of steel i dont think its too bad, I bought my chassis as a pre cut kit off ebay for £200. Simply had to weld it together and create
a couple of bends. Now im onto brackets etc and steel from my local merchants is cheap if you wave cash and dont want a receipt. £5 for a 4 metre
length of 30x3mm flat last friday.
engine, gearbox and axle all second hand off ebay, wishbones and steering rack picked up from rally design at stoneleigh Vat free. Obviously as i get
on further into the build i will hit expense, IE seats, shocks, wheels, but by that time i will hopefully be working full time and have a better cash
flow.
As they say, patience is a virtue.
Luke
We still sell our LB1 chassis plans for anyone who is interested in locost mid engine car.
Based on MR2 donor, we just don't advertise it.
It's were the La Bala got it's roots from to grow to the LB2.
Have to agree with the above posts. The champion car was a VERY basic specification, no budget for seats for instance.
Ive certainly bided my time with my project(s) which both spreads and reduces the cost but ultimately I regard it as a hobby expenditure much like
going to the pub to watch football.
In terms of a locost midi, the Midlana project http://www.midlana.com/ is looking promising!
It seems a lot of you need to visit the mid-engine section more often. Many of us are building cars with transverse FWD powertrains mounted behind the
driver....mine's even a 3 seater...
As for the price of steel.....come on really guys, if that's a major stumbling block you may as well stop now because it doesn't get cheaper
for the rest of it....
Also agree with the design by commitee thing...complete waste of time. Some has to develop something and then offer it as plans or a kit...people then
like or not like it...but you can't design or build to suit every whim.
Alan
[Edited on 15/11/11 by Alan B]
For years the Locost design and mid engined layout have been like a pair of left handed gloves - they work on their own but not as a pair
There are a lot of well behaved front wheel drive cars out there - eg duratec Fiesta's and Focus'. So take 2 front end's put one in
the front and put one on the rear/mid complete with drivetrain - yes there may be geometry issues to consider but you have a known starting point.
I had a GTM Rossa with the K series - looking at it simply, it used Metro front ends front and rear and was a great car. Use a similar principle but
with a mass produced modern car.
Purists may have switched off already but using what already works saves re-inventing the wheel. There are loads of MX5 based 7's in the states
where they use the rear end - there is a weight penalty but for ease and using a tried and tested setup it's got to be worth it.
If you then want to shed weight from the heavier manufacturers suspension components then go for it at a later stage.
Just my thoughts..............
Steve
Bit harsh that mate, circumstances beyond my control im afriad. I had to start again twice,
When I finish the car, and I will, I'm going to come round your house and do doughnuts out front for an hour.
You have unwittingly volunteered to be the first passenger in the mutated volvo powered car clubs flagship vehicle.
All in good fun
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
10 years collecting stuff for a build????????????????
IMHO. your car will never turn a wheel in my livetime, and im only 51 y's young
quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
Bit harsh that mate, circumstances beyond my control im afriad. I had to start again twice,
Apparently because I took 10 months to think about what I wanted and plan a few options my car will never turn in his lifetime either. All I can say
is he'll be dead a few times over at this rate
quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
When I finish the car, and I will, I'm going to come round your house and do doughnuts out front for an hour.
I can see it now towing a fairground fryed food stand behind the mutated volvo powered car club flagship vehicle round to all LCB members houses.
Doughnuts for everyone, or my personal favourite funnel cakes, if you don't know what they are google it.
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
When I finish the car, and I will, I'm going to come round your house and do doughnuts out front for an hour.
Mmmmmmmmm doughnuts!! Can you come round ours when it's done too
quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
I can see it now towing a fairground fryed food stand behind the mutated volvo powered car club flagship vehicle round to all LCB members houses. Doughnuts for everyone, or my personal favourite funnel cakes, if you don't know what they are google it.
quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
I can see it now towing a fairground fryed food stand behind the mutated volvo powered car club flagship vehicle round to all LCB members houses. Doughnuts for everyone, or my personal favourite funnel cakes, if you don't know what they are google it.
quote:
maybe 3 or 4 IVAs in 2 (?) years
One of the problems I see is that people want to build cars that are too complicated/expensive for them to finish - back at the begining you dropped
your xflow or pinto in (or if you were really adventurous a Fiat twin cam!) bolted the carb on, fiddled with the dissy a bit and you were away. Now
people more often than not seemingly want 'twin injector sequential ignition water injection twin turbo 400bhp engines' which tbh
they're never going to get going - or at least not this decade and for under £5K anyway. Same with suspension, brakes etc etc it all has to be as
complicated as possible and it really really doesn't need to be.
Although it pains me somewhat to say it, if someone brought out a book with all the plans to build a 7 alike from an MX5 (I know there is the Keith
Tanner one but it's more a suggestion than a guide) where you could just drop all the donor parts in with minimal fuss then I think more people
would start building Locosts again. It wouldn't take long for people to start trying to make it something it isn't with their 'twin
injector sequential ignition water injection twin turbo 400bhp engines' but that's just human nature I suppose
Maybe a bit of a tangent but if you take a look at Coozers 4 x 4 build it is gonna be a monster, fun to drive on and off road and a great chance to
practise the locostbuilders mentality and skills. Well wortha thought ;D
atb
Mike
Some people may not build these locost anymore, but I certainly will be! I'll start a thread once I am further along but will e well under £2k
by the time it first see's track!
Buying part built for the win
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
In terms of a locost midi, the Midlana project http://www.midlana.com/ is looking promising!
quote:
Now people more often than not seemingly want 'twin injector sequential ignition water injection twin turbo 400bhp engines' which tbh they're never going to get going - or at least not this decade and for under £5K anyway. Same with suspension, brakes etc etc it all has to be as complicated as possible and it really really doesn't need to be.
I see the biggest change on here as being the demographic.
When I joined, the average age would have been well above forty, and they built their own chassis and suspension, in fact most of the car. The average
age now seems to be in the mid twenties, or maybe less. Could be the forum has become populated with a lot of dreamers, and not doers?
Nowdays, the talk is more of 'which kit to buy', and they want it nearly, if not all, complete.
More seem to be buying second hand than willing to build.
Cheers,
Nev.
Suspect it's modern life. In current squeezes people don't have time and want things now rather than waiting. Modern cars are so much better (faster, better handling) than they were even 20 years ago it takes some of the edge off a normal 7-esque build. For me the draw is to challenge myself to design and build somethign from scratch, but I'm an engineer. For a non-engineer I guess they just want a fast car, now.
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
I see the biggest change on here as being the demographic.
When I joined, the average age would have been well above forty, and they built their own chassis and suspension, in fact most of the car. The average age now seems to be in the mid twenties, or maybe less. Could be the forum has become populated with a lot of dreamers, and not doers?
Nowdays, the talk is more of 'which kit to buy', and they want it nearly, if not all, complete.
More seem to be buying second hand than willing to build.
Cheers,
Nev.
quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
I can see it now towing a fairground fryed food stand behind the mutated volvo powered car club flagship vehicle round to all LCB members houses. Doughnuts for everyone, or my personal favourite funnel cakes, if you don't know what they are google it.
Awesome, no problem. Didn't we agree you were the chairman or CFO of the MVPCC?
quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
I can see it now towing a fairground fryed food stand behind the mutated volvo powered car club flagship vehicle round to all LCB members houses. Doughnuts for everyone, or my personal favourite funnel cakes, if you don't know what they are google it.
Can i bring my mutated volvo and do doughnuts whilst you sell doughnuts?
(car doesn't run thought, but I could sit in it and make car noises)
quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
Awesome, no problem. Didn't we agree you were the chairman or CFO of the MVPCC?
link
Anyone is free to come and do donuts outside my house so long as I get the salvage rights.