Hi All,
Im new here, I've been wanting to build a 7 style for some time and now Im in position to do it. Ive looked around a loads of different cars, but
looking at their sales spiel and talking to people who know are 2 different things!
I don't wish to sound big headed, but Im pretty handy behind the wheel having raced since a young age up to a test in F1, so I like something
that handles and has a bit of guts, any less that 200bhp per tonne is a waste of time in my mind.
Ive driven Caterhams of various types and loved them, but they seem expensive for what they are to me, why pay over £10k, or £20k for an R500, when
you can build something identical for just a few grand?
Ive got the Haynes roadster book, I do have a reasonable mechanical ability but Im not a confident welder, so I would rather build something thats
already welded up, more of a bolt together for my first kit, plus to be thinking 'is that weld strong enough' while I'm giving it some
beans would completely spoil it for me and I don't think i would trust it enough to sell it to someone else. The other thing I'm thinking is
do I build something as cheap as i can for the experience, sell it for what it cost me, then do one for myself with more power and better suspension
etc.
Ive looked about at some different kits, GTS tunings site caught my eye as they do a kit for the Haynes roadster, but the kit for their Panther
isn't much more.
Then that progressed on to the thoughts of what other kits are out there worth considering, like MK, Robin Hood (read a bit about the 2B on here and
thats what prompted this post, don't want to end up with a pup!)
So what can you guys recommend for me? Im not necessarily after building the cheapest kit, but if I'm going to go the route of building cheap for
the experience and then moving to what i want it is a consideration.
Thanks in advance for your comments, theres just so much out there I don't know where to start, apologies if this has already been done to
death!
Phil
Where you from Phil?
Im from Essex
Happy to take you out in my panther, I'm near Chelmsford
Can I suggest you read some of these topics
GTS LINKY
before you carry on and then make up your own mind.......... might save us all from yet another 'I've been ripped off' thread
[Edited on 30/1/12 by D Beddows]
Ok, just wondered as i know a Phil who races and wondered if you might be him! But hes from Reading.
Anyhoo, first of building for a few £k is possible but you wont get much of a monster. If you dont want build the chassis from scratch, then your
really looking about 4-6k for a decent 'known' manufactuerer kit which have most things in bar the donor car. And thats where the next
question lies, do you want to use a donor (sierra, mx5, bmw etc), or just make it up out of what ever you find cheap/avilable, or do you want to spend
more money, get everything new and register it has a brand new car awith a current reg?
Next is the BEC/CEC question, arguments over bike or car engines crop up every month or so, generally BECs are a little too raw for road use, but
scream well round a track and weigh in very low. CECs can offer more driveability and torque but are heavier. Despite that, either can be tuned to
suit road or track application, so its a personal preference really.
There are many more questions im sure everyone here will offer an opinion on, like which manufacurer, which make of engine etc.
[Edited on 30/1/12 by loggyboy]
That would be great Im often in Chelmsford area, the Panther is one that I keep going back to look at. What sort of spec is it and how much did it cost you if you don't mind me asking? How would you rate the quality of parts, manual etc?
Manual is crap however I haven't heard of any decent manuals.
Parts were good but did require an engineering input. It's not a put together kit
It's a 61 plate new blacktop engine 1.8 - cost me around 8k ish
U2u me your number and I'll call you later
before you carry on and then make up your own mind.......... might save us all from yet another 'I've been ripped off' thread
Thanks, thats really useful. I saw something a while ago about GTS but there was the hope that they had improved, I guess thats not the case though as
the most recent comment is this month!
You may have saved me a few quid there!
Thanks loggyboy, the new reg thing is something I had given some thought, but then the price starts creeping up bit by bit and I find myself looking
at the Hawk HF3000 instead!
I do like the idea of a bike engined car, it would just be a toy and I think raw as possible suits me. The thing that puts me off the bike engines is
the amount of work involved in making it fit and my ability to do it well - if I build it to my spec, I think I'm set on a bike engine one way or
another, revvy, sequential box, definitely my thing! But if i do a cheap as i can version first i think its too expensive really.
If your interested in bike engines, speak to Andy bates at AB performance
Thanks Eddie, I've sent you a PM.
Your comment about it requiring a bit of engineering is making me wonder though on the benefit in buying a kit, vs going the Haynes route and getting
pre-welded chassis and body kit.
Does anyone have any thoughts on that?
I orginally planned to do mine on a budget of about 6k which seemed reasonable. I was looking at MK, MNR and Raw Striker. MK was without a doubt the
most likely to keep me on budget, but they seemed a little unreachable (both emails I sent and the absolute other end of the country.) MNR were more
expensive, but looked good quality but I chose the Striker based on the look of the kit, the slightly more local (only about 100miles away) and their
reputation for a good chassis (excellent autotest and racing results). Basing on the race results there always need a little pinch of salt as chassis
get tweaked to improve them over what is a standard chassis.
In the end I got a new job which meant I went a bit overboard, decided to go for a new reg, meaning all new parts (except 1 that can be recon'd
to 'as new'
, spent nearly 6k on the kit from Raw, then a brand new engine (2.0 Zetec), Weber Alpha TBs, etc etc. The budget has now stretch
to 10k, but hope to keep close to that now.
Welcome to the mad house.
Are you set on a traditional 7? There's also various exo-skeleton cars, a couple of mid- ngined 7 inspired kits (Jeremy Phillips has some R1ot
kits on offer) and then the full bodied Fury and Pheonix (shares the Striker chassis). I'd be starting by looking at Strikers then MNR, MK...
There's a good argument for buying an already registered kit and striping/rebuilding it; Saves the trouble of IVA and probably a few quid as
well.
Best thing would be to get to one of the shows. Stoneleigh is the biggest on 6/7May and with half decent weather you'll be able to compare loads
of owners cars as well as speak to all the manufacturers. Talk nicely to the owners and you might blag a ride out or two.
"Avoid GTS" could be wise words. Robin Hood Zero is a big improvement on the earlier stuff but give the 2b a wide berth.
..and just to start the argument... Go BEC and 300bhp/ton is easily possible with 12000+rpm red line and sequential gearbox thrown in.
All have their build and handling problems out of the box, all can be sorted. Go visit the companies, decide who you get on with best and which car
you like the look of.
My recommendations are with Aries and Procomp for race proven chassis. Avoid companies that rely on gimmics such as inboard this or paddle that to
sell their products.
As far as GTS go, I've seen some good products but too many horror stories!
loggyboy, that sounds a reasonable budget, I haven't looked at the raw kit I will have a look a that one.
How does it work with getting it on a new plate? i was wondering because although I know that 1 refurb part is ok, is the engine and gearbox is
classed as one item or 2? And as for some of the other bits, like hubs, can they be purchased used or refurbed too? I know the steering rack is
available new, but i have never seen the hubs new, but I haven't really looked as thoroughly as I could - not til I'm ready to buy, I'm
like a kid in a toy shop with this stuff!!
adithorp, yes I think its got to be a 7 style kit really, I haven't seen anything other than the 7's that appealing to me, except some of
the replica cars like the Stratos or Cobras.
hadn't thought of the stripping and rebuilding thing, might be quite good though, Ive always fancied doing an MGB after seeing an MG is born so
might be a good stepping stone for that project! (I already have a Europa the same as in the Plane is born series).
I can just see the price creeping up to the £10k region and with that makes me question the value of spending it on a 7, if i spent £10k on a 7 how
much am i likely to see back? If i took a little longer about the build its then worth spending a bit more on the Stratos, or going for the MGB. So
many things to think about! Im sure most people on this board have thought a similar thing though!
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
All have their build and handling problems out of the box, all can be sorted. Go visit the companies, decide who you get on with best and which car you like the look of.
My recommendations are with Aries and Procomp for race proven chassis. Avoid companies that rely on gimmics such as inboard this or paddle that to sell their products.
As far as GTS go, I've seen some good products but too many horror stories!
Welcome Phil,
The GBS zero is a good start cheap and well put together that's what I am building and had no problems with thing not fitting,
They are at all the kit car shows and have a great parts selection at the shows and very good after sales I have just started my build and if you
would like to come and have a look at my car with no sales pressure just send me a u2u
Hi Phil
whilst we dont sell a 7 kit at the moment, we do a hell of a lot of Bike engined equipment including our own car the Sabre. Reading your posts
suggests that bike power might be the way forward. We alaways have a number of cars in at the unit and if you would like to pop in I would be more
than happy to talk you through some of the installs and the various pros and cons associated with BEC construction, kettle is always on and it might
serve as useful info.
Best regards
Andy
AB Performance
By the way we are in Suffolk not far from Bury St Edmunds
Andy
Thanks Andy, I will take you up on that, especially interested in the Bike engined cars now my wife has banned me from bikes after wearing through
knee sliders at an alarming rate!! And nothing beats the sound of a bike engine 
There's no reason a bike engine shoul be any harder to fit than a car engine. I'd take Andy up on that offer. He's "the man"
when it comes to BEC installs and a top bloke as well.
If you go for new reg (there's pro's and cons) then yes it's just 1 "reconditioned as new" component but my R1 engine and box
was counted as one unit. A car engine and box is 2. All the rest of the major components must be new and you'll need reciepts for them. I'll
leave it to your imagination where to come by those
If you like bikes then BEC is the way to go and remember when the biker has his knee slider on the ground, the BEC driver is sat behind twiddling his
thumbs, waiting for him to move over. 
+1 for chassis from Matt and Ivan at Procomp. Top boys, just check the 750mc postings...
IF you got as far as an F1 test, you should be banging on the door of C8terham, or Westfield. Both do a presentable kit. After them, I'd
talk to Procomp. You're in the wrong place here.
Cheers,
Nev.
I think you're probably best off looking back at the Caterham's again as you won't get a 7 style car that handles anywhere near as well
as one without spending a lot of money on a locost kit and continual development.
Not sure what Caterhams you raced previously, but an R500 isn't £20k, they are more like £43k - £50k I think...
I've worn through the odd knee slider in my time, though nowhere near as good a rider as you sound if your wife is worried about the cost of
going through them so quickly, but I also like the thought of a sequential bike engine in a car, and have done the odd track day and done the odd race
- certainly not raced in F1 or anything though and I know what level of car and handling ability I would be prepared to put up with now, so maybe you
with your talent/expectations should really really be looking at the R500 end. Or if it is just a toy as you say above, why don't you look at a
car called a Radical. They do a variety of models that are a variety of prices and have a variety of engines, almost all are bike engines...
I tend to keep my building and driving expectations a lot lower than you're aiming...
ATB
Steve
If you want a seriously quick car that the pro's rate you can't go far wrong with a GKD legend....
Have a read of this PH article
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/24422.htm
its hard to beat the bang for £ and they handle pretty well too if you read
quote:
Originally posted by Andy B
Hi Phil
whilst we dont sell a 7 kit at the moment, we do a hell of a lot of Bike engined equipment including our own car the Sabre. Reading your posts suggests that bike power might be the way forward. We alaways have a number of cars in at the unit and if you would like to pop in I would be more than happy to talk you through some of the installs and the various pros and cons associated with BEC construction, kettle is always on and it might serve as useful info.
Best regards
Andy
AB Performance
By the way we are in Suffolk not far from Bury St Edmunds
Andy
Your gonna hate me ph1l, I've got a 7 and a MGB GT V8
Remember, BEC will cost more than a CEC, since it was never designed for a car in the first place, and there are a whole bunch of costs associated. I can't remember if you wanted it for the road, but if so, you will be needing reverse, for example. As for "cheaper" kit versus Caterham, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. But then again, with 7's, I've only ever driven my car, and have to take everyone's word for it.
Ive spoken to Andy at AB Performance and he has given me some really useful information and pricing - Im pretty much decided on a CBR1000RR engine,
problem is what to put it in. While I will pay a bit more to do a bike engined car, its what I want and it will be worth more when I'm finished.
I have in mind really that once I've done the 7, i want to do something else, more expensive - something like a D-Type, or GT40.
A mid engined car would be nice, but too much money for what I'm after really, i probably won't track it for more than a proper shakedown as
i have other track outlets. And its not really even that much about the driving of it, i want to build it as its something I've always wanted to
do and learn about, and want to find out if the reality is what i have in my mind!
I agree a caterham would be among the best and those I've driven have been great little tools, only limited really by aerodynamics. But a basic
classic or roadsport is too boring and still nearly double the price, the faster ones become too expensive and i can't justify spending that much
on a 7. As long as the car is balanced and that is as much about the build and setup as much as anything, then Id be happy. With a Caterham, I guess
you benefit from all their experience, they tell you what bits to use because they know and have learnt what works best, they give you the right
suspension and good base setup and tell you exactly where to put the engine, but i wouldn't say thats worth paying double for. With the smaller
companies and varying engines used, the weight distribution alone could be hugely different from kit to kit, one being a real tool the other a
complete dog, with everything else being the same.
The point of these cars is that they become whatever you want them to be. Or they just don't get finished at all, which of course, happens too.
Don't believe BEC's are more expensive than CEC's.
OK you need a reverse box / electric reverse, but what happens when your type 9 goes pop? A BGH or Quaife will set you back more.
The bike comes complete with ECU and carbs / throttle bodies, car engines need at least a megajolt and carbs, or megasquirt / aftermarket ECU and
throttle bodies.
Yes some bike engines need a dry sump, but some only need a baffle plate. I'm sure Andy has given you the run down, unlikely you'll find
someone more knowledgable.
Yes Andy was very helpful, thats partly what has convinced me to go the bike engine route, he can sort a complete package at a good price and if I go
that way the engine and gearbox are the one refurb item if i go for a new plate.
Id like to go for a mid engine kit, but then I'm moving away from my idea of a cheap first kit, then if i enjoy the whole process I can go for
something a bit more tasty!
has anyone any thoughts on Saturn Sports Cars? their kit looks good from the site
I know someone has mentioned this but do consider the Zero and you can have it modded whichever way you like, the lads in the workshop would provide any assistance you require. Cheap kit and very well developed. They also have a new race chassis which looks really good
quote:
Originally posted by ph1l
Yes Andy was very helpful, thats partly what has convinced me to go the bike engine route, he can sort a complete package at a good price and if I go that way the engine and gearbox are the one refurb item if i go for a new plate.
Id like to go for a mid engine kit, but then I'm moving away from my idea of a cheap first kit, then if i enjoy the whole process I can go for something a bit more tasty!
has anyone any thoughts on Saturn Sports Cars? their kit looks good from the site
If you want a 7 and you expect it to handle then you really ought to speak to owners of Cars.
I don't know if you are going to buy in the next couple of months, but you would be best to get yourself to Stoneleigh kitcar show which is the
start of May (5th and 6th I think?).
If I were you and you definitely want a 7 and don't want a Caterham, then my shortlist would be:-
1. Raw Striker
2. Westfield
3. MK Spec RR
4. Aeries Motorsport Locost (was Stuart Taylor LocoBlade)
There are people on here that have opinions about their own car's and people on here that have been round long enough to see and know about all
sorts of problems with the variety of manufacturers, and I would try my very best not to cause any upset by my shortlist, but I think it is pretty
accurate.
I've driven a fair few marques of kitcar's at both the ends of the market, and I've also built a couple of cars in my time too,
although I've given up building, well will give up when I finish this pesky Caterham...
If you change your mind and would have a bodied car, or a mid engined car, or choose to do a rebuild rather than a build then my list would
change...
ATB
Steve
Have you considered the Sylva Riot (J16).
Mid engined - weighs only 460kg - nearly 300bhp/ton without going the bike engine root if you fit a bog standard 1.7l sigma engine.
All in about 7-8K