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New Build Plans Require Advise
EX01 - 22/4/13 at 11:00 AM

Hi Guys

Been lurking a good long while and finally registered and some nice people have been kind enough to reply on U2U.
Thought I would throw out my plans for scrutineering before I spend any money though, as your experienced and I’m new to building.

Baby just arrived and my current and beloved ZX10R had to go due to ill advised letting the wife see some Go-Pro footage of my Sunday Morning Potter to Devils Bridge......

I have longed to own a Radical since I can remember, but that’s not financially possible, so I started investigating Lotus7 locost builds, then I saw the Spire GTR/GT3 so for style of build that’s what I am after a Locost Down force car.

Will probably enter some form of competition at some point, I used to rally and track day and my father and brother in law both currently compete in Hillclimb across the North West, though I prefer circuit racing myself and track days go without saying, road legal would be preferred.


Now your armed with a little knowledge about me and what I aim for I hope this helps the below list and perhaps you guys can steer me right.


I don’t want a BEC they are good but I don’t like Marmite so CEC it is.
Low weight as possible for a CEC.
520bhp per ton, done plenty of track days on motorbike’s I know what fast and ‘really’ low down feels like and did I mention I don’t like Marmite?
Down force car like a Radical, I want to corner like on rails, power is nothing without control, slides are fun but not fast.


Spire GTR3 is BEC only so that is out, but a sexy bit of kit!
Spire GTR looks ideal for me but I worry the chassis is an old design, heavy and requires Sierra running gear which I want to move away from as there are lighter and stronger alternatives (so I read, but for the Spire?).

I went through every engine option I could think of it came down to 4.
Audi B6 1.8T – Heavy but lots of easy power way above what I want.
Toyota 2ZZ-GE (115kgs) bomb proof, cheap and can turbo it BUT drive train options are expensive and limited.
Honda FC20 – Cheap to get, brother in law works for Honda (Cheap parts) BUT without big money no power gains to be had (240bhp not quite enough)
Subaru STI Boxer engine, my favourite engine love that sound, but Paul at Spire tells me the Transaxle is too wide and hard to fit (but has been done)
I think the Ford units are expensive to get the power I require so not an option (8k for 260bhp???? Like really?)


The 2ZZ-GE would be my first choice but unless someone can give me a cheap drive train option I’m back to the Audi 1.8T.
My plan then is to get a cheap (under a grand) Audi A4, strip it keep the engine, gearbox and transaxle sell the rest on Fleebay and have a free Engine?

With the money saved on this route I want to strip the engine and rebuild with Forged rods, pistons and rings and bolt a larger turbo probably from the Garret T28 range.
Never rebuilt an engine but I’m competent and after watching lots of YouTube on how to do it feeling good about the process, time and patience is all that I require as well as a few buddies in the trade to look over my shoulder every now and then.



So is this a good plan so far? And is the Spire and engine choice the best bet for what I want?

I plan to go to Stoneleigh this year on the 5th so anyone feel free to hit me up and tell and show while I am there, would be welcomed.
Long post I know sorry, though planning is the most important part, I aim for an 18-24 month build time.

[Edited on 22/4/13 by EX01]

b14wrc - 22/4/13 at 11:17 AM

Welcome to the Forum EX01,

I to am a middy builder, i assume your car will be a mid engined machine. I thought carefully about my project for at least 3 years before i started and can say you will get the help you need to build your car on this forum. Ans as you say, big turbo power is what is needed but power needs to be applied to the road to be quick. I cant comment on the Spire in that respect, but sure someone will soon.

Where are you based by the way??

Rob

Slimy38 - 22/4/13 at 11:22 AM

I do have a personal liking for the Audi 1.8T having owned a SEAT for a few years now. Seems to be a great engine and literally hundreds of different permutations for extra reliable power. The only thing is that they are front wheel drive engines, and there are only a couple of options for rear wheel drive configuration (both outside my budget). Even the Audi A4 uses the engine as a front wheel drive, despite the engine being longitudinal.

Edit: Just had a look at the Spire, didn't realise the engine was behind the driver. That might suit a front wheel drive configuration, although might be worth checking whether the Audi or VW gearboxes (longitudinal or transverse) work better?

[Edited on 22/4/13 by Slimy38]

SCAR - 22/4/13 at 02:32 PM

Turbo car engined LMP giving 520bhp per ton, you will have very few options (or lots of money), first thing you need to work out is what is it likely to cost.
High quality, track appropriate wheels, tyres and brakes etc to match that power level and I would guess you need to budget 18k to 20k, it would be easy to spend a lot more. Our Spire build is bike powered so others may have a better idea on mid mounted CEC costs, it would be interesting to hear from someone thats done it.
Spire GTR was designed to accept Renault turbo or Audi turbo engines mid mounted with transaxles. I think nearly all are now built with bike engines due to the performance per £ cost equation.I find Paul at Spire is always available to give honest advice rather than try to sell you something (but not this weekend as RGB and Bikesports kick off at Brands)

[Edited on 22/4/13 by SCAR]

[Edited on 23/4/13 by SCAR]

EX01 - 22/4/13 at 02:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
I do have a personal liking for the Audi 1.8T having owned a SEAT for a few years now. Seems to be a great engine and literally hundreds of different permutations for extra reliable power. The only thing is that they are front wheel drive engines, and there are only a couple of options for rear wheel drive configuration (both outside my budget). Even the Audi A4 uses the engine as a front wheel drive, despite the engine being longitudinal.

Edit: Just had a look at the Spire, didn't realise the engine was behind the driver. That might suit a front wheel drive configuration, although might be worth checking whether the Audi or VW gearboxes (longitudinal or transverse) work better?

[Edited on 22/4/13 by Slimy38]


Yes should have said engine behind the driver in my original post.
The A4 comes with the transaxle hence my selection over an S3 and they are bloody cheap compared. The Spire was designed with the Audi engine in mind originally, and Paul (Spire owner) has built a few, another reason to perhaps stick to the Audi lump, that and everyone says what a good bloke Paul is.

The Spire GT3 Chassis is cleaning up in BEC 750’s that’s a totally new chassis designed for that class though, so not sure how the GTR handles, hope someone can shed some light?

Thinking about a good aftermarket diff in a housing rather than stock running gear as getting power down is one of the most crucial things.


As for where I am based In the North West near Blackpool.

SCAR - 22/4/13 at 03:03 PM

GTR has been a top performer in RGB for some years and may still get some top threes this year even though the more experienced drivers have moved up to GT3
A bit confused about your diff statement as if you run a transaxle, which you will with car engine, you wont have a seperate diff.

EX01 - 23/4/13 at 10:38 AM

quote:
[I]Originally posted by SCAR[/I]
A bit confused about your diff statement as if you run a transaxle, which you will with car engine, you won’t have a separate diff.



Still learning and that is why I’m reading up as much as possible and asking possibly daft questions, I don’t mind looking daft every now and then it cost me less money.

Paul reckons 13k would build a decent machine, I think 18k is easy to spend if you want, and once built I am sure I will continue to spend and improve it.
I don’t aim to have the fastest car out the box or ever as there will always be someone with more money to throw at it so I set myself a reasonable starting budget and will endeavour to keep it and improve over time.

A donor engine for free with 3-5k spend on rebuild and power up and a less than 8k chassis I’m in the 13k ballpark, and concessions and no doubt a redraw of plans will happen along the way to achieve my goal, but with the help and experience of the guys here I think this is achievable, I have seen some fantastic things on these boards.




The beauty of a build is not the build or the drive when it’s done, it’s the sneaking the funds slowly past the wife and she remains blissfully unaware!

b14wrc - 25/4/13 at 07:54 PM

I'm in Barrow if you fancy a look at my car sometime.

EX01 - 30/4/13 at 09:47 AM

Kind offer, Im going to be at Stoneleigh if anyone is around and wanting to share and show just send me a U2U.