but I'm all for having to sit an extra test to tow - where I am I see a lot of dangerous idiots with unsafe trailers and no idea how to drive them
Just been double checking my facts, and noticed that as well as it changing after 97, its now changed again after 2013.
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/driving-licence-rules-and-what-you-can-tow
Licences issued from 19 January 2013
From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:
-small trailers weighing no more than 750kg
-trailers weighing more than 750kg, where the combined weight of the towing vehicle and the trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg
If you want to tow a trailer weighing more than 750kg, when the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer is more than 3,500kg, you’ll have to
pass a further test and get B+E entitlement on your licence.
You’ll then be able to tow trailers up to 3,500kg.
Licences held from 1 January 1997
If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can drive either:
-a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500 kilograms (kg) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM (with a combined weight of up to
4,250kg in total)
-a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or ‘kerb’ weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in
total)
For anything heavier you need to take a category B+E driving test.
Which as I read it basically just changes it from the MAM to the actual weight, as all CatB vehicles are 3500kg max.
And removes the requirement for the trailer to be less than the curb weight of the tow vehicle.
While still making no reference at all to the fact the trailer must also (I presume) not exceed the manufacturers rating for the vehicle in questions
towing, and or max train, capacity
https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories
Daniel
[Edited on 22/8/2013 by dhutch]
so if you passed the test between 97 and 2013, you have tighter restrictions. Looks like they are not relaxing the rules for those 16 years.
that is going to cause even more confusion!
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
so if you passed the test between 97 and 2013, you have tighter restrictions. Looks like they are not relaxing the rules for those 16 years.
that is going to cause even more confusion!
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
so if you passed the test between 97 and 2013, you have tighter restrictions. Looks like they are not relaxing the rules for those 16 years.
that is going to cause even more confusion!
Quite a lot of people still don't realise they have any towing restrictions on their license
The information provided, and in the public domain, is in my mind shockingly poor. Particular given the potential repercussions if you get it wrong.
I understand the the pages I have linked to are (given the appearance, presumably) intended only as an introduction for Joe public, and typically (but
not in this case) then link to the original or more detailed documentation, but even if there was a link to more information, its poorly laid out and
miss leading.
I have even had to disagree with a fellow motorsports competitor, who was a B+E trailer test instructor, about what I could or could not tow on my
2005 CatB, as he repeated stated I could ONLY tow a 750kg trailer. Started from the fact I had the kitcar in tow at the time. Working within my
understanding of the 3500kg whole train, and curb weight, limits.
The fact that they have changed the rules, but no retrospectively changed the requirements for people who passed there test between 01/01/97 and
19/01/13 is also in my mind bonkers. Along with picking the 19th of Jan, of all dates!
Daniel
Bonkers.
Time for a petition methinks. Not that they ever come to anything...
if I understand that correctly...
after 97....
your towing vehicle can be up to 3500kg pulling a max 750kg trailer...giving a 4250kg train weight
or.....
if your trailer is over 750kg, then your train weight reduces to 3500kg..... and the trailer is less than the kerb weight of the vehicle
after jan 2013....
is basically saying that train weight must not exceed 3500kg in any situation
quote:
Originally posted by andylancaster3000
Time for a petition methinks. Not that they ever come to anything...
Is there any outline for if the trailer is braked or not?
If I want to tow an autograss buggy behind my VW golf with towing capacity 1400kg braked, 600kg unbraked and a kerb weight of 1388kg and I passed
between 97 and 2013. Would I just need a braked trailer? (buggy weighs approx 400kg)
Dave
quote:
Originally posted by dave_424
Is there any outline for if the trailer is braked or not?
If I want to tow an autograss buggy behind my VW golf with towing capacity 1400kg braked, 600kg unbraked and a kerb weight of 1388kg and I passed between 97 and 2013. Would I just need a braked trailer? (buggy weighs approx 400kg)
Dave
Whatever, the whole thing is generally a mess. Even the simple weight thing is open to so many different interpretations. I have been VOSA'd
*four* times this year on my way to various circuits, after more than a decade of being ignored.
Some say....
If you have a X Ton plated trailer, you need a towing vehicle with a X Ton rated towing capacity, regardless of what weight may or may not be on the
trailer. So a typical middy (or box) trailer plated at 2 Ton, empty, may be illegal behind your Mundaneo.
If you have spare payload capacity in your towing vehicle, that can be allowably used in the trailer, up to the towing weight of the vehicle (see
above) to the limit of the GTW.
And a whole lot else.
I'm an old fart, so don't have to worry about the licence. I have a 3.5T old Transit, which is *on private use* so doesn't need a Tacho
when towing (Some say however....) with a 5.5T GTW. Trailer us plated 2 Ton. This should tick all the boxes, but it still causes a mutter,
particularly from the bored Policeman that has escorted me off the road to VOSA.
Paranoid, I guess I'm on a 'must be watched' list somewhere too...
quote:
Originally posted by dave_424
VW golf with towing capacity: 1400kg braked, 600kg unbraked. Kerb weight of 1388kg.
Passed between 97 and 2013.
Buggy weighs approx 400kg
Would I just need a braked trailer?
quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Whatever, the whole thing is generally a mess. Even the simple weight thing is open to so many different interpretations. I have been VOSA'd *four* times this year on my way to various circuits, after more than a decade of being ignored.
the rules could be a lot clearer
but I'm all for having to sit an extra test to tow - where I am I see a lot of dangerous idiots with unsafe trailers and no idea how to drive
them
quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
quote:
Originally posted by dave_424
Is there any outline for if the trailer is braked or not?
If I want to tow an autograss buggy behind my VW golf with towing capacity 1400kg braked, 600kg unbraked and a kerb weight of 1388kg and I passed between 97 and 2013. Would I just need a braked trailer? (buggy weighs approx 400kg)
Dave
I believe that any trailer with a gross weight over 750kg must be braked.
another thing most folk don't know is that the 'grandfather rights' on old licences will expire when you have to renew your
licence...
(I don't mean if you update your photo or change address, your name etc...)
so if you've got a pre-97 licence you'll automatically have B+E (car+trailer), D1 (minibus) and C1 (7.5ton) licences without having to sit
the tests...
but you'll also see that they are only valid till the day before your 70th birthday
at this point you need to reapply for your licences - but unless you have sat the tests for the trailers etc. you'll loose these licences at this
point!
obviously this won't affect that many people, but some folk have been caught out
[Edited on 22/8/2013 by mcerd1]
quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
the rules could be a lot clearer
but I'm all for having to sit an extra test to tow - where I am I see a lot of dangerous idiots with unsafe trailers and no idea how to drive them
quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
quote:
Originally posted by dave_424
Is there any outline for if the trailer is braked or not?
If I want to tow an autograss buggy behind my VW golf with towing capacity 1400kg braked, 600kg unbraked and a kerb weight of 1388kg and I passed between 97 and 2013. Would I just need a braked trailer? (buggy weighs approx 400kg)
Dave
I believe that any trailer with a gross weight over 750kg must be braked.
even if its under 750kg it might need brakes...
whatever you licence says your not allowed to tow more than the car is allowed to - each car model has a quoted MAM for braked and unbraked trailers
if your cars rated for an unbraked trailer with 400kg MAM - then it would need brakes on a 750kg MAM trailer
[Edited on 22/8/2013 by mcerd1]
) but not entirely right either (dammit 
) GOOD GOD!!!! My head hurts from even just reading the posts let alone trying to understand them. Should I continue in blissful ignorance towing my Skoda Estelle on my twin axle trailer behind my Berlingo Multispace or is Big Brother going to catch me out???
Viper - outline exactly what's in the test for us?
I'd recommend not writing a petition, I'd recommend finding the address of your local MP and asking them to take it up on your behalf. I
did.
quote:
GOOD GOD!!!! My head hurts from even just reading the posts let alone trying to understand them. Should I continue in blissful ignorance towing my Skoda Estelle on my twin axle trailer behind my Berlingo Multispace or is Big Brother going to catch me out???
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Viper - outline exactly what's in the test for us?
Yes, 4 times this year so far.
Two pulls straight off the M5, Taunton, destination Castle Combe, police motorcycle escort. 1st pull was quite 'friendly', just a quick
weight check followed by their version of the law. The 2nd pull was pure madness. The policeman was intent on finding something illegal with the van,
took him over an hour, constantly naggng the VOSA guys to find fault. The experience did nothing to encourage me to respect the police force, very
little has.
One pull just before Sleaford, destination Cadwell. VOSA guy just asked what was in the trailer and my intention, then waved me on.
One pull just before Scotch Corner, destination Knockhill. Again another encounter with a particulary fine example of the police 'service'.
Forget the VOSA safety stuff, he viewed the trailer as having a stolen car in it. No number plates on the car... oh for sh1ts sake...
Am I the only one totally confused with what I can and can't tow?
I passed my test in Jan 98 so therefor fall in the post 97 category. I'm looking to buy a trailer to tow my MNR to track days and my tow car will
be my company car 2011 VW passat estate 1.6 tdi.
So how do I work out what type of trailer I can and can't tow. Looking at the tech specs for my tow vehicle it has an unladen weight of 1505kg
and a gross weight of 2010kg. The trailer load limit is 1200kg and my MNR weighs just under 500kg with me sitting in it. So what type/ weight of
trailer can I tow legally?
Why is something so simple so bloody difficult to work out???
Im probably wrong but I have always taken it that the max laden weight of your tow vehical+the max weight stamped on the trailer mustnt exeed 3500kgs
regardless if theyre both empty.i know someone who was nailed because of that and they never got near a weighbridge to see what weight it actually was
but they had the potential to pull more than what their licence entitled them too.that said ive chanced it in the past, towed a 3.5tonne digger on a
1.2 tonne trailer behind a 3 tonne landrover past a police check and they never battered an eyelid as they know less about it than us.sticky bit would
be if there was an accident I think.
Chris
So, i have a 2011 2.2 deisel Honda Accord saloon, kerb weight 1550 kgs with a maximum towing capacity of 1700 Kgs braked trailer.
We have 2 small ponies and i tow an Ifor williams twin wheel horse box, i have had the hole lot on a weigh bridge with both ponies in and the total
combined is 2800 Kgs.
The trailer is plated with a unladen weight of 800 Kgs and a gross of 2100 Kgs
I passed my test in 1982 so have full B+E entitlement etc
So do i presume that it is illegal ?
Also am i right in thinking if you apply the total gross weight should not exceed 3500 Kgs for the total rig then if you had a heavier car say a Disco
or something it reduces your trailer weight and capacity!.
Something doesn't sound right here and i may of got my wires crossed above, i see alot of Mondaos etc towing those big twin axle caravans around
and they must weigh more than my horse trailer when they are loaded with food / clothes / and all the holiday bumph.
Mick
if you have B+E then 3500kgs doesnt apply... its a problem tho legally , because you should be on a tacho ...
land rover can pull 4 tonnes , according to handbooks , which immediately puts you into trouble if you were to do it .
Also if your VIN doesnt have a max GVW then you potentially can tow what you like .
to put it easily , its only if you have a licence after 97 that legally tells you what GVW your allowed to tow !!
Just found this doc, which supports the fact the 3500kg is the MAM of car and trailer.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_185825.pdf
[Edited on 26/8/2013 by dhutch]
quote:
Originally posted by sonicSo, i have a 2011 2.2 deisel Honda Accord saloon, kerb weight 1550 kgs with a maximum towing capacity of 1700 Kgs braked trailer.
We have 2 small ponies and i tow an Ifor williams twin wheel horse box, i have had the hole lot on a weigh bridge with both ponies in and the total combined is 2800 Kgs.
The trailer is plated with a unladen weight of 800 Kgs and a gross of 2100 Kgs
I passed my test in 1982 so have full B+E entitlement etc. So do i presume that it is illegal ?
Also am i right in thinking if you apply the total gross weight should not exceed 3500 Kgs for the total rig then if you had a heavier car say a Disco or something it reduces your trailer weight and capacity!.
Something doesn't sound right here and i may of got my wires crossed above, i see alot of Mondaos etc towing those big twin axle caravans around and they must weigh more than my horse trailer when they are loaded with food / clothes / and all the holiday bumph.
quote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
if you have B+E then 3500kgs doesnt apply... its a problem tho legally , because you should be on a tacho ...
land rover can pull 4 tonnes , according to handbooks , which immediately puts you into trouble if you were to do it .
Also if your VIN doesnt have a max GVW then you potentially can tow what you like .
to put it easily , its only if you have a licence after 97 that legally tells you what GVW your allowed to tow !!
I was towing a Mazda Bongo (GVW 2260kg) on an unplated trailer behind my Range Rover. I'd guess the trailer would be about 1000kg as it was a big
chunky old thing. I was quizzed by a Traffic cop at a motorway services who owned the Range Rover, the Bongo and the trailer. He wanted to know where
I lived, where I'd towed the trailer from and where I had uplifted the Bongo. He also wanted to know what I was intending to do with the Bongo.
The questions were very precise and he noted eveything in his little note book.
It was my Range Rover, trailer and Bongo. I had set off from home near Whitby with the empty trailer to collect the freshly imported (by me) Bongo
from Bristol Docks and I was taking it home to get it MOT'd and UK registered for my own personal use. He asked to see any fuel receipts just to
verify what I'd said and any documentation for the Bongo.
He checked the fuel receipts very carefully and made more notes in his note book and had a quick look at the import documents.
Once he had looked over the paperwork and checked my (pre-97) license he lightened-up a bit and explained what he was trying to do:
If I had hired the Rangey or trailer, it introduced a commercial element. Likewise, if the Bongo wasn't mine, it would imply that I was moving it
for reward. If the name on the import paperwork wasn't mine, it would also suggest I was working for someone else. And most 'sneaky',
he was checking the fuel receipts to see if I had also got VAT receipts which would suggest that I was wanting to claim back VAT which again, would
suggest I was commercial.
If at any point the plod thought that I was driving for any commercial gain, then I would have needed a tacho and commercial insurance.
Plod also commented that the trailer needed to be plated. He could have reported me for it but as he was happy that the 'investigation' had
gone without incident and everything else was in order, then he would turn a blind eye.
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
If I had hired the Rangey or trailer, it introduced a commercial element. Likewise, if the Bongo wasn't mine, it would imply that I was moving it for reward. If the name on the import paperwork wasn't mine, it would also suggest I was working for someone else. And most 'sneaky', he was checking the fuel receipts to see if I had also got VAT receipts which would suggest that I was wanting to claim back VAT which again, would suggest I was commercial.
If at any point the plod thought that I was driving for any commercial gain, then I would have needed a tacho and commercial insurance.
Plod also commented that the trailer needed to be plated. He could have reported me for it but as he was happy that the 'investigation' had gone without incident and everything else was in order, then he would turn a blind eye.
Hi chaps
This thread is great and very informative.
My view on this is that anybody towing a twin wheel / axle trailer of a reasonable size behind a family saloon or similar is borderline illegal then
!
My reasoning is that a standard familiy saloon say a Vectra or similar is going to weigh 1300 to 1500 Kgs with a towing capacity of 1400 - 1500 Kgs,
most reasonable size twin wheel trailers are going to be rated at over 2000 Kgs carrying capacity, so without any load on the trailer you are or very
close to being illegal due to the rated capacity of the trailer.
So if i am right, if you put your car trailer / transporter on the back of your Vectra and put a 7 esk car on it then you are illegal irespective of
what the hole rig weighs, most car tailers have a plated carrying capacity of over 2000 Kgs unless it is a small mino type.
Mick
quote:
Originally posted by sonic
Hi chaps
This thread is great and very informative.
My view on this is that anybody towing a twin wheel / axle trailer of a reasonable size behind a family saloon or similar is borderline illegal then !
My reasoning is that a standard familiy saloon say a Vectra or similar is going to weigh 1300 to 1500 Kgs with a towing capacity of 1400 - 1500 Kgs, most reasonable size twin wheel trailers are going to be rated at over 2000 Kgs carrying capacity, so without any load on the trailer you are or very close to being illegal due to the rated capacity of the trailer.
So if i am right, if you put your car trailer / transporter on the back of your Vectra and put a 7 esk car on it then you are illegal irespective of what the hole rig weighs, most car tailers have a plated carrying capacity of over 2000 Kgs unless it is a small mino type.
Mick
I have just been doing a little bit of research on this, if i am right, if you have a B+E entitlement on your license then you can tow what weight you
like as long as its within the stated towing limits of the towing vehicle.
Ex, My Honda Accord is rated with a maximum towing capacity of 1700 Kgs braked trailer, so if the horse box i have has an actual weight of 1100 Kgs
loaded then i am legal even though the trailer plate says it could carry upto 2200 Kgs if required behind a suitable vehicle with a 2200 Kgs towing
capacity.
johnny chimpo. your in the exact same boat as me apart from i passed in 1999.
with a gvw on the passatt at 2010kg you can tow a trailer up to max gross 1490kg. my bj minno is max gross 1380 and weighs 375kg meaning i an load it
with 1005kg if needed. the radical is 425kg ish so at 800kg (375 +425) i still havee over 500kg to spare on loading! my tow car has a 2050 gvw so 2050
+ 1380 is 3430kg so 70kg spare.
it goes off the gvw of car plus max gross plated on trailer. many people get the trailer plates altered to suit their needs!
sonic. no! if the max trailer plate says 2200kg then the car must be able to tow 2200kg. gvw of car must be aove max gross of trailer
also its not the weight of the car. its the max gross.
eg my volvo s60 weighs 1650 kg kerb but the max gross is 2050kg therefore i can tow plated trailer up to 1449kg to get me to 3499kg
Cheers for this Daniel... thats exactly the information I was looking for.
All I need to do now is find a Brian James or a Woodford that's gross is less 1490kg and is wide enough and long enough to fit my MNR on it.
Thanks for the help 
Hi Daniel
Thanks for the reply, B+E does not restrict me to 3500 Kgs so the restriction is in the towing vehicle?
So if i bought a Landrover with a towing capacity of say 4000 Kgs then i could tow upto that as long as it is not for hire or reward otherwise it
would be class as comercial and need a tacho
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa.... However if you're towing more than the rated towing capacity of the car then your insurance company probably won't like it...
quote:
Originally posted by sonicI have just been doing a little bit of research on this, if i am right, if you have a B+E entitlement on your license then you can tow what weight you like as long as its within the stated towing limits of the towing vehicle.
quote:
Originally posted by johnny chimpoAll I need to do now is find a Brian James or a Woodford that's gross is less 1490kg and is wide enough and long enough to fit my MNR on it.
It could be worse - you guys could have the laws like we have in the US. Anyone with a regular Class C license (non-commercial, standard license) can
drive a vehicle/tow a combination up to 26,000 lbs gross weight/gross combined weight.
I currently have a 5,500 lbs (9,500 lbs gross weight) gas truck towing my 3,400 lbs (7,000 lbs gross weight) trailer. I am confident enough that I
can properly hook everything up and drive in a safe manner but the thoughts of the average know-nothing Joe being able to do this is downright scary.
When I see someone with a truck and trailer like mine on the road I tend to floor it to get past them. 
There has to be a happy medium between what we have and what you guys have.
[Edited on 3/9/13 by atm92484]
[Edited on 3/9/13 by atm92484]
quote:
Originally posted by dhutch
In the mean time I have just submitted the below as feed back on the direct.gov website.
The information on this page is in my mind poorly presented and inconclusive, which given the mass lack of understanding present in the this area, the consequences of getting it wrong, and the lack of further information available is unacceptable.
I have filed other comments, but to me, key faults appear to lie in the fact that:
-The 97-2013 section details "a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500 kilograms (kg) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)" where the from 2013 section does not, despite the vehicle limitations of a Cat B licence remaining the same, which adds to confusion in what's changed.
-In the 97-2013 section where it details "a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or ‘kerb’ weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)" it is unclear if it is the actual weight of the trailer, or the trailer MAM, that must be less than the curb weight. And if it is the actual weight of the car/trailer, or the car/trailer MAM, that must be 3,500kg or less in total.
-There is no mention that the trailer must also (I presume) not exceed the weight allowed by the vehicle manufacturer for that vehicle.
Please reply to this feedback.