Weight of a Locost?
Normsthename - 26/11/07 at 04:54 PM
Hi
I am new to the forum, and I have been thinking about building a Locost.
Currently I drive a little Microcar (don't laugh!)
I can drive this on a B1 Licence, which was automatically issued to Motorcycle owners when they passed there test before 2001.
I am also allowed to drive a small car weighing up to 550kgs.
I think I have most of the skills required when it comes to building one, I do 2D/3D CAD design and I also have access to a very skilled toolmaker who
can make just about anything in metal 
I have a TIG welder, and I also used to be GRP Laminator in my youth
My last project was building a 3D CNC Routing machine from scratch.
I designed it, welded it and wired it 
So my question, is a locost less than this?
I would imagine a car fitted with a bike engine would be the lightest???
TIA
Andy
worX - 26/11/07 at 05:00 PM
You could get a car engined locost less than that, but if consider that most bike engines (including gearboxes) can weigh upto (and a bit past!) a
100kilos less than a car engine then you know which way will be easier to lose the weight.
I reckon if you were really careful, you could build a locost to around 420kilos without it costing you mega money on choosing the lightest (read-
most expensive!) components...
edited to add: And welcome to the Forum!
All the best,
Steve
[Edited on 26/11/07 by worX]
speedyxjs - 26/11/07 at 06:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Normsthename
I think I have most of the skills required when it comes to building one
Hi Andy,
The amount of skill you have doesnt really come into it. I had no experience of doing anything on a car except the basics a car nut would know. I have
tought myself everything else except welding (did a 2 day course at local college).
Alot of guys on here have built cars at less than 550kg's so it can easily be done.
smart51 - 26/11/07 at 06:01 PM
Is the small car you're allowed to drive limited to power at all? I seem to recall that heavy quadricycles are limited to 400kg and 20 BHP.
Paul TigerB6 - 26/11/07 at 06:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
Is the small car you're allowed to drive limited to power at all? I seem to recall that heavy quadricycles are limited to 400kg and 20 BHP.
Personally, i'd prefer to see you take your proper driving test myself before being let loose in a high performance sports car rather than try
and use the existing rules to your advantage!!!!
If you can drive a car safely then its not exactly hard to pass the test and judging by the LGV theory test its an absolute doddle to pass that if
you have been out on the roads previously.
I personally did my driving test at 18, and since then have done my Institute of Advanced Motorists test, Drive and Survive and my ARDS. I have today
passed my LGV theory test but thats a bit different (i'm hopefully gonna be driving 38te HGV's in the new year as a change of career)
Confused but excited. - 26/11/07 at 07:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Normsthename
I do 2D/3D CAD design and I also have access to a very skilled toolmaker who can make just about anything in metal
I have a TIG welder, and I also used to be GRP Laminator in my youth
My last project was building a 3D CNC Routing machine from scratch.
I designed it, welded it and wired it
Andy
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
Ohh you are going to make lots of new friends here!
Normsthename - 26/11/07 at 07:22 PM
Thanks for the welcome
quote:
Is the small car you're allowed to drive limited to power at all? I seem to recall that heavy quadricycles are limited to 400kg and 20
BHP.
Yes thats right, but you can also drive a car under 550kgs with no power limit on the B1 Licence.
quote:
Personally, i'd prefer to see you take your proper driving test myself before being let loose in a high performance sports car rather than
try and use the existing rules to your advantage!!!!
I did'nt write the rules........
But I have driven reliants on and off for 25 years for 1000's of miles, so a car clutch & gearbox / driving are no strangers to me
Also I have been riding high performance bikes for 29 years, upto 170bhp & 186+mph....
So I don't think the performance of a Locost would faze me either.
quote:
Ohh you are going to make lots of new friends here!
I forgot to mention that I also have a vacuum Forming machine with a 3' x 2' x 6" Forming area
I use this with the 3D CNC Router to machine the moulds out.
If there is anything that anyone wants help with, just PM me and I will see what I can do
Thanks
Andy
Dangle_kt - 26/11/07 at 07:45 PM
I too have driven many reliants (rialtos in fact), which whilst having car controls are very unlike a car.
You will find handling is the biggest shock.
The next biggest shock will arrive when you try and get insurance.
Try it before you invest any time in it.
I found very few places would insure me in a rialto, so even less would consider a high performance sports car in the hands of an (in their view)
untrained driver with zero experience.
I'm all for guys like you getting out of their plastic pigs (I found they did nothing but attract trouble, but then I live in a rough area) but
you need to consider all the additional costs, uncluding on going costs such as insurance which may make it unviable.
Keep us posted!
quote:
Originally posted by Normsthename
Thanks for the welcome
quote:
Is the small car you're allowed to drive limited to power at all? I seem to recall that heavy quadricycles are limited to 400kg and 20
BHP.
Yes thats right, but you can also drive a car under 550kgs with no power limit on the B1 Licence.
quote:
Personally, i'd prefer to see you take your proper driving test myself before being let loose in a high performance sports car rather than
try and use the existing rules to your advantage!!!!
I did'nt write the rules........
But I have driven reliants on and off for 25 years for 1000's of miles, so a car clutch & gearbox / driving are no strangers to me
Also I have been riding high performance bikes for 29 years, upto 170bhp & 186+mph....
So I don't think the performance of a Locost would faze me either.
quote:
Ohh you are going to make lots of new friends here!
I forgot to mention that I also have a vacuum Forming machine with a 3' x 2' x 6" Forming area
I use this with the 3D CNC Router to machine the moulds out.
If there is anything that anyone wants help with, just PM me and I will see what I can do
Thanks
Andy
[Edited on 26/11/07 by Dangle_kt]
roadrunner - 26/11/07 at 07:45 PM
I would do as Paul TigerB6 says, i have a freind who has just built a Tiger with a 2.0ltr zetec, he also drives an Audi A3 with 230 bhp, when he
finished his Tiger that took nearly three years to build, it took him two weeks to roll it and wright it off.
chriscook - 26/11/07 at 08:23 PM
Is the 550kg limit GVW or kerb weight. If it is GVW then you won't be able to have 2 people in the car.
How much does it cost to take your car test anyway? Surely from what you say you would expect to pass first time without any lessons
caber - 26/11/07 at 08:37 PM
My locost with a Pinto engine and a full tank of fuel weight exactly 600Kg at SVA, a bit more than I was expecting! It is a book chassis with the
Cymtricks front mods, a conventional tunnel and steel floor. Interior is sparse, Westfield seat pads straight on the floor, plywood and foam side
panels ally tunnel panels with foam and vinyl so not sure where I could lose 50Kg without a change in the drive train.
Caber
Normsthename - 26/11/07 at 09:38 PM
quote:
I found very few places would insure me in a rialto, so even less would consider a high performance sports car in the hands of an (in their
view) untrained driver with zero experience.
I don't believe that the insurance would be a problem.
The problem is when people who have 'bike' licences apply for insurance on cars like reliants/light cars.
When the insurance ask if you have a full licence, they usually reply "I have a full bike Licence" and thats when the conversation ends.
Nobody has a 'Bike' licence or a 'Car' licence.
Everyone who has passed a riding/driving test has a full licence.
This entitles you to ride / drive a certain classification of vehicle.
My licence entitles me to ride a Motorcycle, a Motor Tricycle, and a light or heavy Quadricycle and a light car not exceeding 550kg.
So if I applied for insurance on a Kitcar, when asked by the insurance company if I had a full driving licence, I would say "Yes" because I
do have a full licence for the class of car I wish to drive.
Looks like I will have to be careful when building a Locost to ensure that it stays under 550kg
Definitely sounds like a bike engine will be the way to go.
I don't plan on putting a hypersports bike engine in like a Hayabusa or fireblade etc. These are too expensive for my budget, I will end up with
a older lesser powered engine.
Andy
[Edited on 26/11/07 by Normsthename]
Avoneer - 26/11/07 at 10:29 PM
I think it would be a very fine line for what they class as a light car and if something happened, I'm sure as damit that an insurance company
would find a way out of paying out anything.
The risks far outweight the cons for what you are trying to do.
I'm sure if you were ever stopped by the feds as well, the CPS would have real fun with that one.
Get a car licence, then an insurance quote.
Pat...
Paul TigerB6 - 26/11/07 at 10:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by chriscook
Is the 550kg limit GVW or kerb weight. If it is GVW then you won't be able to have 2 people in the car.
The B1 licence allows up to 550kg UNLADEN weight so a BEC would certainly pass on the weight limit. Problem is there are performance limits too
aparently - so the locost is a no-go really i recon!!! Not sure what the performance limits are but any locost will certainly be in excess them -
surely it would be so much easier to just take a driving test but if not then would be wise to speak to the DVLA as part of your research??
As for cost - you wont save much by going for an older engine than a Fireblade (which are cheap anyway!!). While a Busa my be £2500 plus, you should
get a CBR1000 / Blade / ZX9R / carbed or early inj R1 for not a lot of money at all comparatively. The advantage comes when you start adding in the
cost of the exhaust and so on - off-the-shelf parts for the commonly used engines are what will keep the cost down (unless you are welding your own
exhaust up of course!!)
[Edited on 26/11/07 by Paul TigerB6]
Paul TigerB6 - 26/11/07 at 11:34 PM
Had me intrigued so got on good old google.
"More recently an EEC directive has been passed, that allows most European member states to drive these micro cars in restricted form without a
license. The UK has chosen (at present) not to implement the full content of this law, but has amended the UK version of the driving license to
accommodate Quadricycles, the good news is that, unlike smartcars they can be driven by anyone with a minimum of a full motorcycles license - category
A/B1 and anyone with a full car license category B. UK Quadricycles can also be used with full engine power to a maximum output of 15kw. Although not
rapid, they are more than adequate for inner city use, towns and local journeys, or in the case of the cabriolets perfect summertime fun
cars!"
15kw = 20.12bhp!! Not much good for a trackday!!
matt_claydon - 27/11/07 at 08:52 AM
There is no power limit for a B1 licence (power limits are only for bikes and quadricycles on A-category licences). Also 550kg is the UNLADEN mass so
a BEC would certainly be fine legally. There's no way insurance or police could have any problem with it, the law is quite clear.
Remember B1 is a car licence for light 3/4 wheeled vehicles that used to be given when you pass a full bike test, it is not 'driving a car
on a bike licence'.
Info is here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022547
Personally for the sake of a hundred quid for a couple of lessons and a driving test I'd do it properly, but if you want to drive a BEC on a B1
licence I see no problems legally.
Bluemoon - 27/11/07 at 08:54 AM
For rules see: Licence
B1 licenses appear to have now power limit... And maxium unladen weight of 550Kg.. You can have 3 or 4 wheels...
Dan
Bluemoon - 27/11/07 at 08:55 AM
Beat me to it! :-(
Paul TigerB6 - 27/11/07 at 09:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by matt_claydon
There is no power limit for a B1 licence (power limits are only for bikes and quadricycles on A-category licences).
A microcar is classed as a quadricycle though - "Microcars, or more correctly known as 'Quadricycles' have been around for many years
in various shapes and forms."
http://www.micro-cars.co.uk/
And to add more confusion - the weight limit for quadricycles is 400kg according to certain sites!! So many sources seemingly having different
limits!!
http://www.fasttoys.co.uk/Answerlist.htm
Having read that - the law doesnt appear to be that clear (typical government) and am sure an insurance company would see it as a possible opportunity
to not pay out.
Personally i'd have to say to Andy it really needs proper clarification directly from the DVLA - i'm sure the last thing anyone would want
is for Andy to find out there is some obscure power limit set in the event of an accident / claim. Wouldnt be much fun finding out you are not covered
and then facing a driving without insurance charge on top.
[Edited on 27/11/07 by Paul TigerB6]
Normsthename - 27/11/07 at 11:16 AM
quote:
but if you want to drive a BEC on a B1 licence I see no problems legally.
I agree!
This is the main text from DVLA
On a B1 I am legally entitled to drive the following :-
3 or 4 wheeled cars or vans where the unladen weight is no more than 550 kgs
Quadricyles are a totally different classification of vehicle and also expensive roadtax for a 505cc engine! £115 a year
On another forum that I use, there are loads of members on there driving light cars.
One chap has been driving a Caterham on a B1 licence for a couple of years
quote:
Personally i'd have to say to Andy it really needs proper clarification directly from the DVLA - i'm sure the last thing anyone would want
is for Andy to find out there is some obscure power limit set in the event of an accident / claim. Wouldnt be much fun finding out you are not covered
and then facing a driving without insurance charge on top.
Quite a few members on the other forum have had the law verifed by the Police and also DVLA, and it is what it says
I would'nt have asked the original question if I had'nt done my research
quote:
Personally for the sake of a hundred quid for a couple of lessons and a driving test I'd do it properly
If I was completely new to driving a vehicle then I would definitely agree.
I have been driving for 29 years all kinds of vehicles (4 wheeled off-road)
I think that I am a little bit safer than some spotty 17 year old who has just passed his test, driving around in a clapped out Vauxhall Corsa with a
loud stereo and 4" exhaust pipe
Andy
DarrenW - 27/11/07 at 12:03 PM
How would the weight of the car be stated / recorded? Reason i ask is that for SVA you declare the design weights which then equates to a gross
weight. This is not the actual weight of the car but i do not recall anywhere official where the actual weight minus driver is recorded for DVLA
purposes.
D Beddows - 27/11/07 at 12:08 PM
Can I ask why you're so completely against the idea of taking the proper driving test for the type of vehicle you want to drive? All the rest of
us have had to and then if we want to ride a motorbike or drive an HGV we have to take another test - and it doesn't matter how experienced a
driver of any other type of vehicle we are.......
Normsthename - 27/11/07 at 12:31 PM
quote:
Can I ask why you're so completely against the idea of taking the proper driving test for the type of vehicle you want to drive? All the rest of
us have had to and then if we want to ride a motorbike or drive an HGV we have to take another test - and it doesn't matter how experienced a
driver of any other type of vehicle we are.......
Why?
I already have a licence to drive this class of vehicle.
The law works both ways, if you passed your car test before 2001 you are allowed to ride a moped on a car licence.
Who says that is right?
Would you take your motorcycle test to ride a moped?......
Andy
[Edited on 27/11/07 by Normsthename]
Paul TigerB6 - 27/11/07 at 01:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Normsthename
Would you take your motorcycle test to ride a moped?......
Andy
[Edited on 27/11/07 by Normsthename]
Personally - I value my life so i'd get proper training and take a test to ride any sort of bike!!!
I have driven a 173bhp Zetec Tiger for 7 years and am now building a ZX12r Tiger. Personally i'll be looking at getting as much training via a
high performance driving course and the instructors at trackdays as I can possibly get. I've passed my ARDS test in the past so was qualified to
race but still consider myself inexperienced in driving a car that will have the performance of a BEC.
In my view, arrogance of ability is what gets people killed.
D Beddows - 27/11/07 at 01:27 PM
No, but a moped is 50cc and limited to 31mph.....
Fair enough, you've found a loophole and you're going to exploit it even if it makes your life unnessesarily complicated as has just been
demonstrated by you having to justify at length on here what you're doing Best of luck to you!
DarrenW - 27/11/07 at 01:47 PM
Surely licence type is irrelevant to this post. norm is happy he has the legalities right so tht shold be end of story. It is also apparent that a
good car can be built for under 550Kg. What iam interested to know is how the car is legally weighed and registered to qualify for this class. The
design gross weights calculated at SVA is normally far higher than 550Kg. So how do the powers that be know the car is actually less than 550Kg?
Normsthename - 27/11/07 at 01:52 PM
quote:
I have driven a 173bhp Zetec Tiger for 7 years and am now building a ZX12r Tiger.
I have owned several superbikes that have a far greater power to weight ratio than any kitcar has (1000+ bhp per tonne ) and I have managed to
handle them O.K so I don't think a much lower powered Locust would be a problem.
In complete contrast to this, I am regularly on USA bike forums and over there car drivers can go out and buy 180bhp Superbikes with no training
whatsoever
Plenty of those guys live to tell the tale......
All I am talking about doing is building a low powered Locost, I am not interested in a fireblade or hayabusa powered fire breathing car
I would be fittiing an engine with an absolute maximum power of 100 bhp approx. perhaps even a lower powered Big V-Twin
Wheres the harm in that?
Even my plastic Pigs had 41 bhp (94 bhp per tonne)........
quote:
So how do the powers that be know the car is actually less than 550Kg?
First thing people like me do is to get them officially weighed. Some people have light cars and then strip them of 'extras' car stereo etc
to make sure the weight is below the 550kg limit.
Then they get the Logbook changed to reflect the 'corrected' weight.
quote:
Fair enough, you've found a loophole and you're going to exploit it even if it makes your life unnessesarily complicated as has just been
demonstrated by you having to justify at length on here what you're doing Best of luck to you!
quote:
norm is happy he has the legalities right so tht shold be end of story
Thanks
Andy
[Edited on 27/11/07 by Normsthename]