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best value for money Bike engine
gaz_gaz - 16/6/11 at 06:28 PM

Evening everyone.

i have a MNR with 5jj carbed r1 motor, only really use the car for trackdays and the occasional Sunday outing,
wouldnt mind having a go at some sprints in the future possibly,

anyway, as much fun as the car is i just can't get past the lack of power it has.

last week at Brands Hatch i was really struggling to pull a gap on a Clio 182 down the straight, i found myself catching up to most other cars on the corners but kept getting creamed down the straights and it got abit dull.

So i'm thinkin about an engine swap, i want to stay bike engine as i like the gearbox and the high revs,

so i was wondering what bike engine provides the biggest bang for your buck?

i was thinking something along the lines of a zzr1400 maybe?

anyone care to offer some advice ?

thanks

Guinness - 16/6/11 at 06:44 PM

Stick a supercharger / turbo on the engine you've got?

Saves a lot of re-wiring / engine cradle alterations?

afj - 16/6/11 at 06:59 PM

The clios are quite fast on track lots of power and low weight. Turbo the r1 or swap to a busa or zzr1400 if i was building again i would go honda s2000

gaz_gaz - 16/6/11 at 07:30 PM

is it possible to turbo/supercharge with carbs? that would definatly be an option,

Steve Hignett - 16/6/11 at 07:32 PM

It is better to turbocharge with carbs...

Steve Hignett - 16/6/11 at 07:34 PM

http://www.turbo-bike.net/

Have a read of this and then feel free to ask questions on here. (start a new thread if you go down this route)

You may end up with a few answers from people that just want to "take-part" but there are also a few people that know what they're talking about...

[Edited on 16/6/11 by Steve Hignett]

tilly819 - 16/6/11 at 07:35 PM

^^
i have to disagree its far easier to supercharge with carbs as you just fit larger jets, if u turbo you can either jet it for on boost in which case it will idle very rich or jet it for off boost in which case it will run lean at the top

tilly

Steve Hignett - 16/6/11 at 07:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by tilly819
^^
i have to disagree its far easier to supercharge with carbs as you just fit larger jets, if u turbo you can either jet it for on boost in which case it will idle very rich or jet it for off boost in which case it will run lean at the top

tilly


You misunderstood... I wasn't saying that it was easier than S/C - I was saying that if you are going to turbo it, then it's easier with carbs than injection!!!!

tilly819 - 16/6/11 at 07:40 PM

ahh sorry i did indeed misunderstand you, though out of interest why do you say it is easier with carbs than injection, setting up a set of carbs for turbo boost is a nightmare when with injection its just a case of a power commander and a new map admittedly more expensive but much easier IMO

tilly

locoR1 - 16/6/11 at 07:40 PM

As Steve says with carbs it quite easy to do, the link Steve has posted is where i got most of the info to do mine.

Turboed my 4xv about 3 years ago best thing i have ever done to the car apart from going bec in the first place
it made 257bhp on the dyno running just under 12psi

tilly819 - 16/6/11 at 07:44 PM

ah i see

very good link

tilly

StevieB - 16/6/11 at 07:51 PM

What ratio diff are you running? That could make a big difference for a relatively low outlay.

Other things to consider would be a jet and needle set and a sausage filter if not already fitted (and a proper set up on a rolling road).

tomgregory2000 - 16/6/11 at 08:27 PM

Turbo it, you know you want to

gaz_gaz - 16/6/11 at 08:33 PM

ah your the chap with the sr20 i was chatting to at Stonleleigh,

i'm tempted by the turbo option,

the diff is a 3.62 and the car has been dyno jetted, perhaps i am expecting too much from it?

tomgregory2000 - 16/6/11 at 09:05 PM

Thats the one

I think you are expecting a little too much, what you need is a bit more torque to be able to push the brick shape of a 7 through the air.

With mine at 120mph you put your foot down and you just start going faster Not so much fun in the wet (gets a little scary)

Go on turbo it over the winter, that gives you the summer to get the bit for it together.

gaz_gaz - 16/6/11 at 09:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by locoR1
As Steve says with carbs it quite easy to do, the link Steve has posted is where i got most of the info to do mine.

Turboed my 4xv about 3 years ago best thing i have ever done to the car apart from going bec in the first place
it made 257bhp on the dyno running just under 12psi


do you mind if i ask which turbo you used?

and did you buy a kit or just collect the parts yourself?

what was the torque figure on the dyno ?

gaz_gaz - 16/6/11 at 09:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hignett
http://www.turbo-bike.net/

Have a read of this and then feel free to ask questions on here. (start a new thread if you go down this route)

You may end up with a few answers from people that just want to "take-part" but there are also a few people that know what they're talking about...

[Edited on 16/6/11 by Steve Hignett]


your a bad man showing me that link.

looks like turboing will be the easiest and cheapest option aswell as giving the most gains,

hiflow - 17/6/11 at 07:58 AM

I was in same position as you, but i have a CBR900 N spec engine. In the end i went for ZZR1100 over some the the newer engines, purely because i felt it was bomb proof. 2.8k for a low mileage Busa is way out of my budget, ZX12-r are great engines, but dont have the strongest of boxes, but can be tuned very cheaply to 190bhp-200bhp. I was going to S/c the ZZr and as reliable as it is, even with forged internals i feel the box would would not take the punishment. I was told by a bike engine builder, expect to strip and rebuild the bottom end every 3k , if you turbo it ! My mates got a ZX14 in is locost and he loves it. he did say that on a track day a lad was running a locost with a R1 on a rotrex charger and after 3 FLYING laps, he had to come in & let the oil temp cool from 120oc !

at the very least your going to need Forged pistons+ rods + forged exhaust valves. My own preference would be aftermarket ECU , blowing through Throttle bodies and it would be easier to setup and give better bhp over a carb setup.

Andy

gaz_gaz - 17/6/11 at 02:22 PM

did he have proper cooling mods on that car with rotrex charger as thats just silly and abit pointless,

we had a little trouble with the S2000 turbo getting hot but a larger oil cooler sorted the oil temps out perfectly,

i wouldnt be running much boost so with slightly lower compression and keeping it nice and rich on the afrs should keep it all cool enough to not melt pistons i'd think.

i think i'm going to have a bash at it, 4xv and 5jj engines are cheap as chips to replace anyway.

Nick DV - 17/6/11 at 02:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gaz_gaz
ah your the chap with the sr20 i was chatting to at Stonleleigh,

i'm tempted by the turbo option,

the diff is a 3.62 and the car has been dyno jetted, perhaps i am expecting too much from it?


You need to change the diff to at least a 3:36 or if you can get one a 3:14

Cheers, Nick

gaz_gaz - 17/6/11 at 03:16 PM

i'm probably wrong about this as i am with most things but that would give me a higher top speed and slower acceleration?

JoelP - 17/6/11 at 04:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gaz_gaz
i'm probably wrong about this as i am with most things but that would give me a higher top speed and slower acceleration?


basically yes, but also fewer gear changes. I wouldnt personally suggest changing the diff unless you specifically want to.

Nick DV - 17/6/11 at 04:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gaz_gaz
i'm probably wrong about this as i am with most things but that would give me a higher top speed and slower acceleration?


In theory it would. In practice you won't notice that much on the acceleration where you use it, but you were saying you were running out of top end and this will give yo more. Of course, add a turbo and diff and you get the best of everything!

Cheers, Nick

JoelP - 17/6/11 at 04:53 PM

OP doesnt say if the problem on the straight was running out of revs at the end, or whether he simply didnt have enough acceleration/grunt between say 80 and 120mph.

If you were just to change the diff to suit the circuit, then you simply adjust it so that it approaches max revs on the fastest straight, which might well require a 3.36. However, if the car isnt pulling well enough down the straight, the last thing he needs is a longer diff which would lower the revs.

gaz_gaz - 17/6/11 at 04:59 PM

yep as Joel says.

i'm running out of straight before i run out of revs so would like abit more grunt for that reason,
maybe with more power i'll be running out of revs then i'll look at the diff but i'll need to wait and see.

[Edited on 17/6/11 by gaz_gaz]

hiflow - 17/6/11 at 06:14 PM

its was a 4k kit, drive in , drive out

LOL would hope to get an oil cooler for that

hiflow - 17/6/11 at 06:19 PM

why dont you go 42mm TB's , emerald / omex , freshen up the bottom end. . I'm sure you would see over 180bhp.

progers - 17/6/11 at 06:34 PM

Do you actually know what the engine is producing? i.e have you been to a rolling road?

Its quite common that people have not optimised what they have, losing bhp and acceleration through poor intake, exhaust design and non optimal jetting. Is there nice cold air going into the carbs?

A well setup 5jj should be putting out >160bhp (roughly 135 at the wheels) and with a 3.62 should be ideally geared for Brands. What was your top speed on the straight - it should be >120mph. If not it would suggest you are down on what you should have.

Food for thought before you start spending cash on upgrades.

One simple upgrade is to lighten your car - do you know how much it weighs? MNRs are known for being a bit porky.

Personally, if all is well and you just want more grunt, I would put a ZX12 in there. Cheap and plenty of power and can be simply tweaked to give more. Far more reliable solution than super/turbo charging.

Regards

Paul

gaz_gaz - 17/6/11 at 06:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by hiflow
its was a 4k kit, drive in , drive out

LOL would hope to get an oil cooler for that


The Rotrex kit we had on our EP3 Civic didnt come with an engine oil cooler, only a Supercharger oil cooler,
that car done 20k miles at Snetterton, Brands Hatch, Spa, Nurburgring and had no issues what so ever with oil temps,

gaz_gaz - 17/6/11 at 07:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by progers
Do you actually know what the engine is producing? i.e have you been to a rolling road?

Its quite common that people have not optimised what they have, losing bhp and acceleration through poor intake, exhaust design and non optimal jetting. Is there nice cold air going into the carbs?

A well setup 5jj should be putting out >160bhp (roughly 135 at the wheels) and with a 3.62 should be ideally geared for Brands. What was your top speed on the straight - it should be >120mph. If not it would suggest you are down on what you should have.

Food for thought before you start spending cash on upgrades.

One simple upgrade is to lighten your car - do you know how much it weighs? MNRs are known for being a bit porky.

Personally, if all is well and you just want more grunt, I would put a ZX12 in there. Cheap and plenty of power and can be simply tweaked to give more. Far more reliable solution than super/turbo charging.

Regards

Paul


The engine made 154bhp on a dyno dynamics dyno at the flywheel.
just looked at a video and at Brands the digidash is saying 121mph when i get scared and jump on the brakes so your pretty much spot on there.

I have no idea how much it weighs but being an older 1 i imagine its a fair bit, its being corner weighted next week so should have an answer.

JoelP - 17/6/11 at 07:23 PM

i reckon i managed to loose 50kgs out of my locost when i binned a few bits. Both seats, the dash, the windscreen and the tunnel cover