dhutch
|
| posted on 26/8/13 at 04:25 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by sonicSo, i have a 2011 2.2 deisel Honda Accord saloon, kerb weight 1550 kgs with a maximum towing capacity of 1700
Kgs braked trailer.
We have 2 small ponies and i tow an Ifor williams twin wheel horse box, i have had the hole lot on a weigh bridge with both ponies in and the total
combined is 2800 Kgs.
The trailer is plated with a unladen weight of 800 Kgs and a gross of 2100 Kgs
I passed my test in 1982 so have full B+E entitlement etc. So do i presume that it is illegal ?
Also am i right in thinking if you apply the total gross weight should not exceed 3500 Kgs for the total rig then if you had a heavier car say a Disco
or something it reduces your trailer weight and capacity!.
Something doesn't sound right here and i may of got my wires crossed above, i see alot of Mondaos etc towing those big twin axle caravans around
and they must weigh more than my horse trailer when they are loaded with food / clothes / and all the holiday bumph.
Dont know what you had in the car, or what the ponies are, but...
Car, 1550 curb, maybe 100 for you and some fuel = 1650
Trailer, unlaiden 800, ponies at 200x2 = 1200
Total 2850, which is 2800ish, with light ponies....
The information published on what you can once you have B+E is even worse, but I would say that to the letter of the law, given my understanding, you
need to replate/derate the trailer to 1700kg.
Yes, if your post 97 with a 3500kg limit, the bigger the car the smaller the trailer, with the landrover boys being limited to 750kg trailers. But
that doesn't effect you if your pre 97.
What morons tow behind mondeos, and how much crap people put inside caravans, does not dictate the law or make it even close to safe.
Also have a read of this, which claims VOSA are stating different information.
http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/machinery/machinery-features/getting-to-grips-with-towing-law/36317.article
There are also legal implications if you are towing animals/livestock, with regard to your breakdown cover and the like, which by law must include
recovery of the trailer, and unloading of animals.
Daniel
|
|
|
|
|
phelpsa
|
| posted on 26/8/13 at 09:00 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
if you have B+E then 3500kgs doesnt apply... its a problem tho legally , because you should be on a tacho ...
land rover can pull 4 tonnes , according to handbooks , which immediately puts you into trouble if you were to do it .
Also if your VIN doesnt have a max GVW then you potentially can tow what you like .
to put it easily , its only if you have a licence after 97 that legally tells you what GVW your allowed to tow !!
You only need a tacho for 3.5<7.5 tonnes if towing commercially. Thats why you see 'not for hire or reward' on the side of private 7.5t
trucks.
|
|
|
owelly
|
| posted on 26/8/13 at 11:57 AM |
|
|
I was towing a Mazda Bongo (GVW 2260kg) on an unplated trailer behind my Range Rover. I'd guess the trailer would be about 1000kg as it was a
big chunky old thing. I was quizzed by a Traffic cop at a motorway services who owned the Range Rover, the Bongo and the trailer. He wanted to know
where I lived, where I'd towed the trailer from and where I had uplifted the Bongo. He also wanted to know what I was intending to do with the
Bongo. The questions were very precise and he noted eveything in his little note book.
It was my Range Rover, trailer and Bongo. I had set off from home near Whitby with the empty trailer to collect the freshly imported (by me) Bongo
from Bristol Docks and I was taking it home to get it MOT'd and UK registered for my own personal use. He asked to see any fuel receipts just to
verify what I'd said and any documentation for the Bongo.
He checked the fuel receipts very carefully and made more notes in his note book and had a quick look at the import documents.
Once he had looked over the paperwork and checked my (pre-97) license he lightened-up a bit and explained what he was trying to do:
If I had hired the Rangey or trailer, it introduced a commercial element. Likewise, if the Bongo wasn't mine, it would imply that I was moving
it for reward. If the name on the import paperwork wasn't mine, it would also suggest I was working for someone else. And most
'sneaky', he was checking the fuel receipts to see if I had also got VAT receipts which would suggest that I was wanting to claim back VAT
which again, would suggest I was commercial.
If at any point the plod thought that I was driving for any commercial gain, then I would have needed a tacho and commercial insurance.
Plod also commented that the trailer needed to be plated. He could have reported me for it but as he was happy that the 'investigation'
had gone without incident and everything else was in order, then he would turn a blind eye.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
|
|
|
dhutch
|
| posted on 26/8/13 at 12:12 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
If I had hired the Rangey or trailer, it introduced a commercial element. Likewise, if the Bongo wasn't mine, it would imply that I was moving
it for reward. If the name on the import paperwork wasn't mine, it would also suggest I was working for someone else. And most
'sneaky', he was checking the fuel receipts to see if I had also got VAT receipts which would suggest that I was wanting to claim back VAT
which again, would suggest I was commercial.
If at any point the plod thought that I was driving for any commercial gain, then I would have needed a tacho and commercial insurance.
Plod also commented that the trailer needed to be plated. He could have reported me for it but as he was happy that the 'investigation'
had gone without incident and everything else was in order, then he would turn a blind eye.
I think the technical term is 'the crafty bastards' also glad to here he didnt find anything, other than the missing plate, to be
wayward.
Daniel
|
|
|
sonic
|
| posted on 28/8/13 at 08:52 PM |
|
|
Hi chaps
This thread is great and very informative.
My view on this is that anybody towing a twin wheel / axle trailer of a reasonable size behind a family saloon or similar is borderline illegal then
!
My reasoning is that a standard familiy saloon say a Vectra or similar is going to weigh 1300 to 1500 Kgs with a towing capacity of 1400 - 1500 Kgs,
most reasonable size twin wheel trailers are going to be rated at over 2000 Kgs carrying capacity, so without any load on the trailer you are or very
close to being illegal due to the rated capacity of the trailer.
So if i am right, if you put your car trailer / transporter on the back of your Vectra and put a 7 esk car on it then you are illegal irespective of
what the hole rig weighs, most car tailers have a plated carrying capacity of over 2000 Kgs unless it is a small mino type.
Mick
|
|
|
phelpsa
|
| posted on 28/8/13 at 09:24 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by sonic
Hi chaps
This thread is great and very informative.
My view on this is that anybody towing a twin wheel / axle trailer of a reasonable size behind a family saloon or similar is borderline illegal then
!
My reasoning is that a standard familiy saloon say a Vectra or similar is going to weigh 1300 to 1500 Kgs with a towing capacity of 1400 - 1500 Kgs,
most reasonable size twin wheel trailers are going to be rated at over 2000 Kgs carrying capacity, so without any load on the trailer you are or very
close to being illegal due to the rated capacity of the trailer.
So if i am right, if you put your car trailer / transporter on the back of your Vectra and put a 7 esk car on it then you are illegal irespective of
what the hole rig weighs, most car tailers have a plated carrying capacity of over 2000 Kgs unless it is a small mino type.
Mick
The trailer plated weight is only an issue if you don't have B+E entitlement. If you do, then you can tow whatever you like within the remits of
the license. However if you're towing more than the rated towing capacity of the car then your insurance company probably won't like it...
|
|
|
sonic
|
| posted on 28/8/13 at 09:46 PM |
|
|
I have just been doing a little bit of research on this, if i am right, if you have a B+E entitlement on your license then you can tow what weight you
like as long as its within the stated towing limits of the towing vehicle.
Ex, My Honda Accord is rated with a maximum towing capacity of 1700 Kgs braked trailer, so if the horse box i have has an actual weight of 1100 Kgs
loaded then i am legal even though the trailer plate says it could carry upto 2200 Kgs if required behind a suitable vehicle with a 2200 Kgs towing
capacity.
|
|
|
daniel mason
|
| posted on 28/8/13 at 09:47 PM |
|
|
johnny chimpo. your in the exact same boat as me apart from i passed in 1999.
with a gvw on the passatt at 2010kg you can tow a trailer up to max gross 1490kg. my bj minno is max gross 1380 and weighs 375kg meaning i an load it
with 1005kg if needed. the radical is 425kg ish so at 800kg (375 +425) i still havee over 500kg to spare on loading! my tow car has a 2050 gvw so 2050
+ 1380 is 3430kg so 70kg spare.
it goes off the gvw of car plus max gross plated on trailer. many people get the trailer plates altered to suit their needs!
|
|
|
daniel mason
|
| posted on 28/8/13 at 09:51 PM |
|
|
sonic. no! if the max trailer plate says 2200kg then the car must be able to tow 2200kg. gvw of car must be aove max gross of trailer
|
|
|
daniel mason
|
| posted on 28/8/13 at 09:54 PM |
|
|
also its not the weight of the car. its the max gross.
eg my volvo s60 weighs 1650 kg kerb but the max gross is 2050kg therefore i can tow plated trailer up to 1449kg to get me to 3499kg
|
|
|
johnny chimpo
|
| posted on 28/8/13 at 10:05 PM |
|
|
Cheers for this Daniel... thats exactly the information I was looking for.
All I need to do now is find a Brian James or a Woodford that's gross is less 1490kg and is wide enough and long enough to fit my MNR on it.
Thanks for the help 
|
|
|
sonic
|
| posted on 28/8/13 at 10:16 PM |
|
|
Hi Daniel
Thanks for the reply, B+E does not restrict me to 3500 Kgs so the restriction is in the towing vehicle?
So if i bought a Landrover with a towing capacity of say 4000 Kgs then i could tow upto that as long as it is not for hire or reward otherwise it
would be class as comercial and need a tacho
|
|
|
dhutch
|
| posted on 1/9/13 at 05:34 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa.... However if you're towing more than the rated towing capacity of the car then your insurance
company probably won't like it...
I expect the police/dvla/etc may also not be over the moon, if im honest....
quote:
Originally posted by sonicI have just been doing a little bit of research on this, if i am right, if you have a B+E entitlement on your
license then you can tow what weight you like as long as its within the stated towing limits of the towing vehicle.
As I understand it, once you have B+E (or BE, if your after 2013...) you are then, as per some who passed before 1997, able to two a train upto
8250kg. Rather than 3500kg.
quote:
Originally posted by johnny chimpoAll I need to do now is find a Brian James or a Woodford that's gross is less 1490kg and is wide
enough and long enough to fit my MNR on it.
Or replate it, with a derated plate.
Daniel
|
|
|
atm92484
|
| posted on 3/9/13 at 04:35 PM |
|
|
It could be worse - you guys could have the laws like we have in the US. Anyone with a regular Class C license (non-commercial, standard license) can
drive a vehicle/tow a combination up to 26,000 lbs gross weight/gross combined weight.
I currently have a 5,500 lbs (9,500 lbs gross weight) gas truck towing my 3,400 lbs (7,000 lbs gross weight) trailer. I am confident enough that I
can properly hook everything up and drive in a safe manner but the thoughts of the average know-nothing Joe being able to do this is downright scary.
When I see someone with a truck and trailer like mine on the road I tend to floor it to get past them. 
There has to be a happy medium between what we have and what you guys have.
[Edited on 3/9/13 by atm92484]
[Edited on 3/9/13 by atm92484]
-Andrew
Build Log
|
|
|
dhutch
|
| posted on 9/9/13 at 04:52 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by dhutch
In the mean time I have just submitted the below as feed back on the direct.gov website.
The information on this page is in my mind poorly presented and inconclusive, which given the mass lack of understanding present in the this area,
the consequences of getting it wrong, and the lack of further information available is unacceptable.
I have filed other comments, but to me, key faults appear to lie in the fact that:
-The 97-2013 section details "a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500 kilograms (kg) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)" where the from 2013
section does not, despite the vehicle limitations of a Cat B licence remaining the same, which adds to confusion in what's changed.
-In the 97-2013 section where it details "a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or ‘kerb’ weight of the towing
vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)" it is unclear if it is the actual weight of the trailer, or the trailer MAM, that
must be less than the curb weight. And if it is the actual weight of the car/trailer, or the car/trailer MAM, that must be 3,500kg or less in
total.
-There is no mention that the trailer must also (I presume) not exceed the weight allowed by the vehicle manufacturer for that vehicle.
Please reply to this feedback.
Got a reply today:
#####
Hello again
Your request (#242571) has been closed.
If you reported a bug or mistake and you don't think it has been fixed, you can reopen this request, either reply to this email or follow the
link below:
http://govuk.zendesk.com/tickets/242571
Nikki, Sep 09 11:17 (BST):
Dear Daniel
The GOV.UK content team have received an response from DVLA to your original query that raised a general and 3 specific points:
"Policy/Subject Matter Expert reply that in general: 'there are no factual errors'. Also, on the 3 specific points made in Daniel
Hutchinson's original mail - DVLA have no objection to GDS making any slight amendments for consistency; the trailer weight in this case refers
to the Maximum Authorised Mass, not the actual weight; no, the web information sticks closely to the legislation rather than manufacturer’s
guidance."
I hope you find this information useful
Best wishes
Nikki
GOV.UK User Support Team
Government Digital Service
####
Well, so there we have it.
GDS appears to be the 'Government Digital Service' who look after things like the direct.gov website
Daniel
|
|
|
