DIY Si
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| posted on 14/10/06 at 02:03 PM |
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I think the main problem was just a bit of confusion. I now see what you mean, but origianlly it read as you saying a (your?) locost racer was quicker
than a good bec/S2000. Can't say about the others, but I for one see what your on about.
[Edited on 14/10/06 by DIY Si]
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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procomp
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| posted on 14/10/06 at 02:09 PM |
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Hi thank you. I do somtime think i am going mad and am reading things totaly different to every one else.
cheers matt
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NS Dev
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| posted on 16/10/06 at 11:51 AM |
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Would a few BEC'ers post 1/4 mile times and ACTUAL costs to build their cars.....real costs not billy please.
My VX 16v XE car will have cost me approx £5800 by the time it is on the road, has 200hp, 170lb ft of torque and (as long as my foam seats don't
add too much weight ) will weigh around 560kg............ no idea what 1/4 mile will be yet.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 16/10/06 at 12:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Devno idea what 1/4 mile will be yet.
I'd estimate approximately "Damn quick" 
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NS Dev
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| posted on 16/10/06 at 12:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi thank you. I do somtime think i am going mad and am reading things totaly different to every one else.
cheers matt
Nah, you've just been racing for a long time, so you're familiar with the strange phenomenons known as "hype" and "billy
bull5hit" , and how once they get out of control any touch with reality is lost.
Nothing like a good race or two to keep those two things in check!!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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procomp
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| posted on 16/10/06 at 02:00 PM |
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JoelP
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| posted on 16/10/06 at 03:03 PM |
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locost zx9, bought as a CEC for £2k and converted to BEC for another grand. (engine 300 exhaust 400 ish and prop 200, 100 in shite).
never done a timed 1/4, but alan's car is a similar spec, he did a 13.2 at york dragway.
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Coose
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| posted on 17/10/06 at 08:56 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
quote:
Originally posted by TangoMan
Just to add my two pence worth 
On a recent track day at Teesside ther were several blow-ups on the day. None was a car engine!!
Not fair! Mine was out because the gearlever broke, and the other chap had an old engine! That said, you could have a spare engine with you and
swap it by hand in a few hours 
2nd'd! Joel's was a broken weld, Mark's 'Blade blow-up (the ONLY blow-up) was a '97 engine out of a crash-damaged bike
that'd done several thousand trouble-free miles! The motor was out in two hours (it woulda been one if lunch hadn't have been in the way)
and he got another complete motor for £450! Albeit that motor is still sat on his garage floor, but a steady afternoon would get it all back together
and going again!
BEC every time..... 
Spin 'er off Well...
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 17/10/06 at 11:03 AM |
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theres some good car engines about
theres fantastic bike engines about
one things for sure having owned in the last 5 years a certain amount of supercars and the R1 indy
nothing can beat the buzz of the 13,000rpm and a paddle shift with 130db of micron by my ears
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Hellfire
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| posted on 17/10/06 at 11:57 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Would a few BEC'ers post 1/4 mile times and ACTUAL costs to build their cars.....real costs not billy please.
My VX 16v XE car will have cost me approx £5800 by the time it is on the road, has 200hp, 170lb ft of torque and (as long as my foam seats don't
add too much weight ) will weigh around 560kg............ no idea what 1/4 mile will be yet.
12.5 Second quarter mile at York Raceway. Actual cost is a difficult one though cos the second Indy was built using some parts from the first.
With regards to lap times, I've seen Indys lapping at Cadwell in the high 1:30's / low 1:40's on trackdays. Pretty good times I
think for non-racers who've only done a few trackdays there
Phil
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marc n
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| posted on 19/10/06 at 07:24 AM |
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well ive been waiting to post on here to give news of a bike powered cars reliabilty until one of our cstomers completed his journey
just had word he has arrived safe and sound in lisbon 
never driven a bike engined car before
he left here on monday morning at 10 am got to porstmouth at 4-30 after a couple of stops during heavy traffic ( only used £45 of fuel at 70mph ) set
sail at 8 pm ferry crossing took 1 and a half days across sea then drove 900 km through spain and reached portugal last night at 8pm safe and
sound
the ironic thing is the weather here was great when he left and as soon as he reached spain and portugal it threw it down and had heavy winds causing
him to stop for two hours
all looks good for the potential mnr owners trip to portugal next year stopping at estoril circuit for some fun
reliability wise the bike engines only have one real achillies heel and thats the clutch although this is normally a problem for a newbie who just
isnt used to it and besides takes ten fifteen mins to change and costs about £80
i say go for the bike engine
i have driven a lot of quick cars in my relatively young years both on and off the circuit and pound for pound you will not beat the performance and
agility of a bec over a car engined car without spending serious cash
best regards
marc
please email rather than u2u
direct workshop email ( manned 8am till 6pm )
www.mnrltd.co.uk enquireys to :-
chrismnrltd@btinternet.com
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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procomp
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| posted on 19/10/06 at 08:48 AM |
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Hi i am pretty shure that the original poster of this question has been and brought himself a verry nice 220bhp vx westfield and verrrry nice it is
too.
cheers matt
Ps that just leaves the debate of the good old bec V cec to continue .
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NS Dev
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| posted on 19/10/06 at 08:52 AM |
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Here's an interesting thread that I read.................... only one CEC and a whole lot of BEC's............ how on earth did the CEC
manage to win this one???
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=53569
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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iank
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| posted on 19/10/06 at 09:13 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Here's an interesting thread that I read.................... only one CEC and a whole lot of BEC's............ how on earth did the CEC
manage to win this one???
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=53569
*cough* we conservatively guess we're giving him about a 80-100Bhp advantage. *cough*
p.s. the whole BEC vs CEC argument is getting pretty boring, and seems to actually be generating some bad blood this time around. Which is sad.
IT'S POINTLESS ARGUING it really doesn't matter! Unless it's a pinto it's going to be FASTER than you can ever use it on the
road, if it is a pinto it's still going to be faster that 90% of tintops.
The "my engine's better than your engine" nonsense should be left with the 12 year olds playing top trumps.
All IMO
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 19/10/06 at 09:23 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by iank
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Here's an interesting thread that I read.................... only one CEC and a whole lot of BEC's............ how on earth did the CEC
manage to win this one???
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=53569
*cough* we conservatively guess we're giving him about a 80-100Bhp advantage. *cough*
p.s. the whole BEC vs CEC argument is getting pretty boring, and seems to actually be generating some bad blood this time around. Which is sad.
IT'S POINTLESS ARGUING it really doesn't matter! Unless it's a pinto it's going to be FASTER than you can ever use it on the
road, if it is a pinto it's still going to be faster that 90% of tintops.
The "my engine's better than your engine" nonsense should be left with the 12 year olds playing top trumps.
All IMO
Agree, we are all in the same gang really..........
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NS Dev
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| posted on 19/10/06 at 09:23 AM |
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LOL there's no bad blood from my point of view, it might come over that way but I can assure I'm only winding up!!!
Hellfire, as the biggest bike engine proponent on here I think, can see that I am sure, so i think everybody else must be able to!
I'm just offering the pros of the alternative to BEC.
Lets not forget I will soon be building one myself!!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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JoelP
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| posted on 19/10/06 at 01:34 PM |
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so assuming that the vauxhall engine would have between 200 and 240bhp, depending on how powerful you guess a blade engine to be (120-140), how much
would you expect the engine to cost, and what would it require for that power? Would it be throttle bodies and a new ecu, cams and headwork?! I bet it
cost a whole lot more than a blade engine anyway
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NS Dev
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| posted on 19/10/06 at 02:21 PM |
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yea would cost a fair bit more than a std blade engine, but a 200hp vauxhall will be a case of base engine plus ecu and throttle bodies (plus exhaust
but you'd need that for the blade too so ignore that)
what does a full blade engine setup cost, approx £1000 I guess including everything needed to run it.
vauxhall is £200 for bare engine (or free if you are clever) then, if you splash out on decent stuff, £600 for the ecu kit and £400 for the throttle
bodies, so around £1200, a tad more than the bike engine but a lot more power.
Its horses fo courses but the bike engine on its own does not stack up any better than a car one.
What you DO have to pay for is a gearbox though, which is obviously free with the bike one and rather nifty at that!
Its the gearbox issue that has made me go for a pair of bike engines for my next grasser, as a suitable gearbox to make a car engine competitive in my
class 9 is £3000.
The bike engines won't cut the mustard power-wise, but the combination of good gearing, changeable sprocketry, fairly light weight and the flat
torque curve of a pair of 1000cc vee-twins I hope will make it competitive.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 19/10/06 at 04:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
vauxhall is £200 for bare engine (or free if you are clever) then, if you splash out on decent stuff, £600 for the ecu kit and £400 for the throttle
bodies, so around £1200, a tad more than the bike engine but a lot more power.
There are locost options of course (Megasquirt, bike TB's) which should reduce the costs at the expense of labour/time.
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JoelP
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| posted on 19/10/06 at 06:05 PM |
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you could probably get it cheaper with bike carbs and megajolt (is it needed over standard parts?), maybe £600 all in.
Since all engines need an exhaust and a propshaft you can discount them. They also all need airfilters, so that too doesnt count.
My engines cost 400 for the first and 200 for the second - thats a spare, not cos one broke! The sprocket adapter was £50ish. Aside from the sump
getting chopped (60 or 70 istr) and a £30 set of clocks, theres nothing besides the bits listed above. Takes me to engine (average £300) plus 150, or
£450 all in.
Conservative guess of power to be 120bhp (probably more but no point arguing) and weight should be 450ish. With me in, thats 120/0.53=226bhp/tonne.
Now, assuming the bec engine weighs about 60kgs all in, i bet a 2l vaux plus box will be 150kgs? Correct me if im wrong. To maintain 226bhp per tonne
now the weight is 90kgs more, you need 226x0.62bhp, or 140bhp, which is probably about stock for the engine after transmission losses.
Question is, could you buy a standard working vaux engine and gearbox for less than £450? Including any sump work required and a bellhousing etc.
If we go back to a 200bhp version (was that what you quoted the £1200 for?), assuming its still 620kgs with me in it you now have 322bhp/tonne.
Assuming we pick another 60kgs bike engine, for example the zx10 (busa and zx12 i believe are 90kgs, which depletes some of the advantage), the bec
would have 175 (conservative estimate) and again be 530kgs, with me in it. This would be 175/0.53=330bhp/tonne, again very comparable. The zx10
however would be about 1500 and might need a dry sump (i dont actually know).
Second to last point, though bhp/tonnes are comparable there is then still the proBEC advantage of less weight to turn through corners and stop,
versus the proCEC advantage of reliability.
The final point is just to question the follow assumptions, if im wrong please let me know and i can recalculate:
1200 all in for a 200bhp vauxhall
1500 for a zx10
60kgs for a zx10
150kgs for a 2 litre vauxhall engine with box (i suspect this one most!)
Cheers
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