john-d
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 08:06 AM |
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newbie over whelmed
Hi all, cool sitr you have here.
Long story short:
24 and owned a few performance cars
Just sold an e46 m3
Want something a bit more special and personal
Young child so spacing cost over a period is helpful
Single garage
Reasonable welding and craft skills
Many mates in machine shops etc
Wanting sub 4 second 0-60
Lean towards vauxhall as its what i know best
Traditional lotus 7 style wanted
Well basicly thats that, the site, im sure is a hive of info but at my early stage is really too much at once.
Now i bought a book on ebay which suggests using a mk1 escort (good luck finding one) and even suggests one can be had for £25 lol obviously this is
outdated.
What is the best plan/kit for what i want? Really fancy a home made jobby but am flexible.
Probably have around £4-500 a month for parts most the time but obviously i dont want to spend £££££. Id rather make then buy someones.
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johnemms
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 08:14 AM |
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Either a part built or save for a cheap IVA'd one is my advice 
Own chassis & Build - First time pass!!
"7's" aren't really "cars", they are 'experiences"
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john-d
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 08:17 AM |
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As pretty much stated in my lost post i want to make my own not a one somebody has possibly bodged together. I will either buy a kit to assemble or
make my own chassis using plans...
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NigeEss
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 08:22 AM |
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Hello and welcome to probably the best fountain of knowledge on the web.
You have picked up Uncle Rons book, Escorts are now like hens teeth. There's a newer book by Chris Gibbs/Haynes
which bases on a Sierra which are also now scarce. Modern thought leans towards Mazda MX5 or BMW 3 series of
there see still plenty.
Plenty of kit manufacturers, MK, Saturn, MNR, Tiger etc or start from scratch.
A built car will generally cost less in the long run.
Good luck and enjoy whichever route you choose.
Ps: put your location in your profile, almost certainly someone local who is willing to meet and assist.
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.................Douglas Adams.
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snapper
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 08:31 AM |
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The new book is the Haynes Roadster by Chris Gibbs
You can buy the chassis pre built or cut in flat pack or you can be a real soldier and cut it from the tube
Me, I would buy a chassis, wishbones and hubs then get the body work and a donor vehicle
The rest is generic and you can pick stuff up as you go along
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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jossey
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 08:32 AM |
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As nige said go for something without the escort n sierra if you can help it.
If you want to do it in stages ten I would suggest either buy a part built manufacturers chassis n bits not home built n build that up or a new
chassis from the likes of mk, mnr, tiger when you know what engine you want. Eg road use n track? Bike engine or car as all of those kits have huge
potential with specific set ups like don't put a v6 or v8 in a tiger avon etc.....
If I was to start again I would go car engine not bike.... I would use the tiger still as its great for bth road n track..... I would buy new bits
where poss. I would have bought a running engine from a car eg zetec or Saab or something.
God luck and I hope to see you build something.
Buy a few more books like the build a sports car for 250 the new one and what ever manufacturer u choose.
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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john-d
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 09:00 AM |
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Thanks for the replies.
I will have a look for the gibbs book.
Im not against buying as said a manufactured chassis, i like the sound of buying flat pack already cut.
Im probably going down the c20xe, c20let or z20let route. Probably with a type 9 box. What sort of bhp is needed for sub 4 sec 0-60.
It will be a road car not track.
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sdh2903
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 09:18 AM |
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To get sub 4 secs with a heavy car engine is going to need a lot of power, well in excess of 200bhp I would have thought.
I would say sub 5 secs maybe a better target to aim at.
I know you say you want to build but buying a complete one cuts out all the expense and hassle of IVA and registration. there's nothing stopping
you from stripping it down and fully rebuilding to your spec and standards.
If you are adamant about the sub 4secs you need to be very light, in which case have you thought of using a bike engine? A good zx12 or late zx10
engine will give 170Bhp out of the box and a one can be had for a grand if you look about. I will admit to knowing nothing of the vauxhall engines but
I imagine would still be reasonably pricey to get up above 200hp?
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sdh2903
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 09:22 AM |
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ah bit of googling shows the z20let is the turbo engine, bit more tweakable I guess
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john-d
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 09:38 AM |
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z-let is cheap to get to 300bhp mate, although i doubt a type 9 would take that power. I always thought of bike engines as a bit highly stressed?
I see the point about avoiding iva which seems good indeed
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SCAR
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 09:43 AM |
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Real world driver with sub 4 secs 0 to 60, forget it you havent got anywhere near enough money.
Sub 5 sec and you might get there (talented, frugal, lucky?) and you can always tell everyone its sub 4 as they wont be able to tell the differance
(unless you take them to Santa Pod.)
I would think you need a very very light weight car with a bike engine of about 200bhp or a light weight car with 400bhp The engine alone installed
and running will cost 4k+.
Then you need to find the grip, probably 4wd, oh then you need more power.
A couple of things to be aware of
1. A kit car will feel and be much quicker than most tin tops.
2. All figures reduce in the pub except the bhp ones which increase.
3. You will get mixed advice on forums (usually good on here) and you will need to filter out what you think is correct
4. Find someone with a car you like and blag a ride before you commit to anything
5. Add 1 sec to any 0-60 times anyone quotes unless they have a santa drag strip print out
Good luck let us know how you get on
Cheers
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mcerd1
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 09:51 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by john-d
Im probably going down the c20xe, c20let or z20let route. Probably with a type 9 box. What sort of bhp is needed for sub 4 sec 0-60.
that'll depend on how heavy you make it 
but if your looking for that sort of performance you should consider the darkside (i.e. bike engines)
[Edited on 16/1/2013 by mcerd1]
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sdh2903
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 09:54 AM |
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The Iva is 500 quid of your budget straight away as well as a day of your time etc. and that's if you pass first time. Then you have to deal
with the Dvla which can be hit and miss to say the least. Plus all the dvla offices are closing so even more problems as everything to be done at
Swansea.
I'm not saying don't build as I loved building mine and I would (and will) do it again. But it is loads easier, quicker and generally
cheaper to buy one.
Bike engine vs Car engine will open up the age old debate on here just do a search and grab some popcorn.
I have a bike engine in mine, an older carbed R1 engine with maybe 130 hp at the wheels and it goes like stink, by far the quickest thing I've
driven. I've never had an m3 though to compare. Yes they are kind of highly strung but for a 'toy' car they are superb.
Find someone local with a car engined car (CEC) and someone with bike engine (BEC) and try and get a run out. that will make up your mind for you.
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john-d
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 10:17 AM |
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been browsing some threads on here, seen some mighty corroded chassis. Think im more up for building my own, its not a rush project. Its some thing to
keep me entertained so can take as long as it wants meaning if something costs a lot then ill save up till i can afford it.
The m3 did 5.2 sec 0-60 which felt fast at first but i soon grew used to it.
A mate of mine has a spartan kit car with a 1300 triumph engine in it, 80 mph in that is terrifying so i understand the tin top comment.
Guess the place to start is a gibbs book then work out whats what. My main worry is finding an axle and box to take a let engines torque.
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jossey
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 10:19 AM |
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I know this will start an interesting convo/ argument but if your going to iva just get a car engine I have just started looking at reverse boxes n
they will cost me around £500 with a new prop.
You need reverse for iva.
When I iva mine ill dump a cheap Zetec in it which may fall out later on.
I'm a bike engine guy myself but its a world of pain for iva me thinks.
People like adi thorp may disagree but that's a forum for ye.
Bikes seem to be good for great 0-60 and even to 100 on a track but not very particle for road use.
I've been in some fast cars with both bike engines n laptoprobs c20xe n the bike engine just sounds quicker not sure on actually lap time
difference.
Defo get a track ride in both :-)
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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phelpsa
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 10:23 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SCAR
Real world driver with sub 4 secs 0 to 60, forget it you havent got anywhere near enough money.
Sub 5 sec and you might get there (talented, frugal, lucky?) and you can always tell everyone its sub 4 as they wont be able to tell the differance
(unless you take them to Santa Pod.)
I would think you need a very very light weight car with a bike engine of about 200bhp or a light weight car with 400bhp The engine alone installed
and running will cost 4k+.
Then you need to find the grip, probably 4wd, oh then you need more power.
A couple of things to be aware of
1. A kit car will feel and be much quicker than most tin tops.
2. All figures reduce in the pub except the bhp ones which increase.
3. You will get mixed advice on forums (usually good on here) and you will need to filter out what you think is correct
4. Find someone with a car you like and blag a ride before you commit to anything
5. Add 1 sec to any 0-60 times anyone quotes unless they have a santa drag strip print out
Good luck let us know how you get on
Cheers
0-60 in under 4 seconds isn't THAT difficult to achieve. You certainly don't need 200bhp to do it in a bike engined car.
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 10:31 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
0-60 in under 4 seconds isn't THAT difficult to achieve. You certainly don't need 200bhp to do it in a bike engined car.
Go on then Adam post up some evidence. What are your 64ft times?
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phelpsa
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 11:09 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
0-60 in under 4 seconds isn't THAT difficult to achieve. You certainly don't need 200bhp to do it in a bike engined car.
Go on then Adam post up some evidence. What are your 64ft times?
My tyres aren't exactly representative, but i've seen some fairly lowly sevens on good road tyres doing 2.3 second 64ft times.
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john-d
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 11:27 AM |
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I dont see it that impossible, maybe a bit over engineering of parts will be needed for a haynes kit but surely its the same basic principle as a
caterham
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mcerd1
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 12:17 PM |
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caterhams are very light compared to some anyway (BEC locosts can be even lighter though )
they quote the classic as 6.5s to 60 (525kg, 105bhp / 95ft.lbs from a 1.4 K series)
the top spec road sport as 4.8s to 60 (550kg, 175bhp / 139ft.lbs from a 2.0 duratec)
with the R400 at 3.8s to 60 (515kg, 210bhp / 150ft.lbs from a 2.0 duratec)
if your building car using parts from any of the common donors they'll be a fair bit heaver than the (expensive) caterham equivalents (alloy
hubs etc)
never mind that the caterham engines are all fairly light weight all alloy ones, so you could find yourself starting with a bit of a weight
disadvantage…
assuming you can get the power to weight you may struggle to find the grip to be able to use it
(I know some folk have run there fastest 1/4 miles with a bag of sand in the boot to get more grip off the line! )
not saying its impossible, but it could cost more than you think - IMHO its better to build it with a more realistic goal and upgrade it later as an
ongoing project
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SCAR
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 12:40 PM |
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Its not impossible, its just expensive to achieve
Be good if someone can post on here what they have that has sub 4 sec 0 to 60 (with proof and not a bloke down the pub or "it used to be 6 secs
before I rebuilt it so must be sub 4 sec now"
There is a massive differance between say 3.8 and 4.8 and I would expect a car engine would need to be turbo'd and probably 4wd.
We have a fuel injection rebuilt Rover 3.5 with megasquirt engine management in a seven that weighs about 700kg all up 200bhp but lots of torque,
geared to do 0 to 60 runs in second gear so no gear changes required probably doing low 5's.
We now have a 4.6 to drop in which should give us another 30bhp but lots more torque. I doubt we'll see better than 4.5
Caterham r400 3.8 secs 420bhp per ton and £33,000
[Edited on 16/1/13 by SCAR]
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 01:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
Go on then Adam post up some evidence. What are your 64ft times?
My tyres aren't exactly representative, but i've seen some fairly lowly sevens on good road tyres doing 2.3 second 64ft times.
2.37seconds to 64ft + O-level maths = 0-60mph in 4seconds
FYI Adam is too modest, I google his times to 64ft and found one at 2.08secs, which equates to 0-60 in 3.07seconds, and he only has a gsxr1100
(heavily breathed upon).
All calcs based on a constant acceleration calculation and no gearchanges.
BEC's rule.
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smitht82
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 01:07 PM |
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Hi John,
I'm an ex Vaux nut and had an SRI Turbo Z20LET with 298bhp and 380 Torque. I now have a MK Indy with a Fuel Injected Yahama R1 engine and must
say it makes the Astra feel like it was standing still. Mostly how close to the floor and open to the elements you are. The engine is where the
difference will lye in your experience of the car as the BEC is so light and agile, but its the noise it makes.
Good luck in your decision!
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john-d
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 01:17 PM |
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Is there any books/guides on building a bec? I like the sequencial box tbh but worry about the engineering side of things
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40inches
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| posted on 16/1/13 at 02:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by john-d
Is there any books/guides on building a bec? I like the sequencial box tbh but worry about the engineering side of things
Everything you need to know is on this site, I bought a part finished MK with a ZX9R engine for £1800, stripped it down completely and rebuilt it my
way, you could check my Photo Archive for an insight, but if you need to know anything during the build you can find it here, using the search
function, or simply ask
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