Syd Bridge
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 08:51 AM |
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Manufacturers Liabilities
I wasn't going to continue this, but couldn't pass this one up..........
Read Darren's 'Terms and Conditions'.
Guess who's just sh*t himself about liability????
All the guff says that you are responsible for what you put on your car, regardless of who you bought it from, and what they told you it can do.
He even goes so far as to say you have got to test it yourself, prior to fitting!!!!.
And he says he can sell you what he wants, of any standard and suitability, then wash his hands of it.
Your 'terms and Conditions' don't absolve you from your Statutory Obligations, Darren, no matter how officious and daunting your
'T&C's' may appear to be.
The only thing you can do is put a Big sticker on your parts, just like Wilwood, and all the yank manufacturers.
WARNING: FOR RACING USE ONLY. or WARNING: NOT FOR USE ON PUBLIC ROADS.
Get some Product Liability Insurance, then engineer your stuff properly! Are you a member of STATUS? Dr.George and Denzil and the team would be more
than happy to test and certify your products.
All that guff wouldn't stand up in court. Get a refund from the solicitor who told you it will.
You make it. You sell it. You're responsible for it.
Cheers,
Syd.
Just wait until Euro Law gets its grubby hands on us. You won't be able to 'pass wind', without taking responsibility for emissions
and standards!!!!
[Edited on 26/10/04 by Syd Bridge]
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locogeoff
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 08:54 AM |
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bet this ones going to run!
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Fozzie
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 09:57 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by locogeoff
bet this ones going to run!
Oh no!
Ah well! I suppose we dont HAVE to click on and read it!
ATB fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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barrie sharp
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 10:08 AM |
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To anyone that buys anything
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onelife/legal/rights/consumer.shtml
dont know if the link will work interesting though.
the cars looking good" a blind man would be pleased to see it"
''stop press'' the blind mans seen it said "it felt ok"
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Rob Lane
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 12:18 PM |
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Syd,
You are a complete ar*e and a definite stir for stirs sake.
I don't normally take exception to peoples postings, I try to take a balanced view.
However your continual stirring and downright snide comments are shameful.
You make yourself out to be the 'peoples champion' whilst all the time taking great joy in doing nothing constructive for other builders
but instead stirring up trouble.
This site is supposedly for people who are constructing Locosts et al and are happy to give useful advice.
Even if a product is tried and tested and still fails, you are the type to gripe and want blood. Parts fail, even in normal use.
If we all follow the american litigation lead there won't be a kit car industry soon.
Litigation and blame culture by 'greedy people' almost destroyed the private aircraft industry in america.
There are some manufacturers who are already prepared to leave the kit car parts field and only produce finished vehicles.
A great loss to all.
There are small operators out there who cannot get liability insurance, not through their fault but the insurance industry exorbitant premiums making
them unviable.
Rob Lane
[Edited on 26/10/04 by Rob Lane]
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SeaBass
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 12:30 PM |
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Syd WTF are you a member of this forum??
Your helping no one with constant trouble making...
I suggest you spend more time building your car or driving it, whichever stage your at!
Cheers
[Edited on 26/10/04 by SeaBass]
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flak monkey
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 12:35 PM |
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Im sure Darrens stuff is engineered correctly, and is 'fit for purpose'. As that is what it all comes down to isnt it? I dunno I'm
no legal expert.
If you buy stuff from him then modify it then its your fault if it busts in use. But AFAIK if you buy something like (for example) wishbones then they
should fulfil their purpose as wishbones i.e they will do what they are designed to and will withstand a certain amount of abuse allowed for by the
saftey factors in the design. Basically if they fail you are entitled to some form of replacment or whatever. Like i said i dont know the ins and out
but i think thats what its about?
Just a thought Darren, if you are worried about legal action if anything goes wrong (as it seem what this is about?), then you should probably
consider becoming a limited company. Then if someone tries to sue you for some reason then you yourself are safe from losing any personal effects
(like your house!) to pay compensation. Disadvantage of course is it costs money and is a lot of paerwork to becom a ltd company...bonus is the
personal security it offers the owner/managers. If you are a sole trader currently (or in a partnership) then you are responsible for paying legal
stuff, and if you cant afford to pay then your belongings can be used to pay the bill... then again im sure you are already aware of this.....? 
And just for the record i think Syd is stirring again.... he may be right? but i think he could have said what he thinks without being so offensive.
Anyway lets not start an argument with Syd, as i seem to remeber doing this several times already....
Anyway thats my 2p worth
Cheers
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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locoboy
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 12:35 PM |
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From the BBC pages as linked to by Barrie,
What does the law say?
One of the most important laws governing your rights as a consumer is the Sale of Goods Act 1979. Like many laws it has evolved to keep up with
changes in society so the Act now includes the 'amendments' the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 and the Sale of Goods (Amendment) Act
1995.
This is a wide-ranging piece of legislation that applies to both new and second-hand goods.
It protects consumers by ensuring that:
Goods are of 'satisfactory quality' - products must last a reasonable time and be free of defects
Goods are 'as described' - a trader or advertisement must honestly describe the product. If, for example, you buy a CD that turns out to
be counterfeit then you have a case against the trader that sold it.
Fit for purpose - products must do what the supplier says they do.
I think the key one here is the last one where by it must do what the supplier says it will do.
[Edited on 26/10/04 by colmaccoll]
ATB
Locoboy
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Rob Lane
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 12:39 PM |
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OK, following logically on from Syds post.
I would warn all who are offering advice or who would assist someone in making a Locost, that they could be held liable should anything happen to that
Locost.
Reselling components applies also.
Anyone who has supplied anything to Syd for his Locost build should lookout.
I for one, am now stopping any posts that would help or contribute in any way to a Locost build.
I could be held responsible.
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Rob Lane
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 12:46 PM |
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Limited Company will not help a case where negligence by design is cited.
They will go for the Directors personal assets.
I hope Darren or MK or Luego will look closely at their Terms and include "Not for use on Public Roads" it's the only way to deal
with the issue.
Some people are always out to get whatever they can and accept no personal liability for their actions. That unfortunately, is the era we live in.
[Edited on 26/10/04 by Rob Lane]
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flak monkey
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 12:53 PM |
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Like i said im no expert...was just a suggestion. All i know is that Ltd Co offers more protection than just being a sole trader. So we have been led
to believe on our business planning module anyway...
Litigation era...another import from our American cousins....
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 01:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Lane
I for one, am now stopping any posts that would help or contribute in any way to a Locost build.
I could be held responsible.
Personally, I never try to tell anybody to do things a certain way - I tell then how I did it (or how I would do it) and emphasise that they should
make their own mind up on its worth.
David
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paulf
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 01:24 PM |
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I would be supprised if Syd is building anything,as with this attitude he will never dare to take it on the road.If he does I hope that the suspension
bolts are securely tightned as a wishbone falling off has got to be worse than it bending.
I would also like to know how Syd has so much knowledge of future legislation and euro laws?
Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by SeaBass
Syd WTF are you a member of this forum??
Your helping no one with constant trouble making...
I suggest you spend more time building your car or driving it, whichever stage your at!
Cheers
[Edited on 26/10/04 by SeaBass]
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ned
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 01:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Litigation era...another import from our American cousins....
I don't want to be associated as a cousin of Americans, especially that Bush bloke.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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derf
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 01:55 PM |
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I have on a few occations recieved excellent customer service, or even full replacement on an "for off road use only" part. I bought a new
turbo for my focus last year, and within 100 miles of the installation the intercooler started to leak. The company that sold me the turbo spent
almost 4 straight hours with me on the phone trying to resolve the problem, hunting down possible leaks elsewhere in the system, The only thing they
asked of me to replace the intercooler was to pay for shipping it to them, as soon as they recieved the old one they shipped me a new one, and bit the
cost of shipping to me a 2nd time.
I find that most companies here in the US are like that, they will bend over backwards to make right what they did wrong.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 02:18 PM |
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Well, I've just added a disclaimer to my posts here... 
David
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woodster
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 02:29 PM |
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I would like to add to this thread but i don't think it would be a good idea at the moment .............
cheers woodster
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pbura
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 03:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ned
I don't want to be associated as a cousin of Americans, especially that Bush bloke.
You may well be my cousin, Neddy boy, as I am almost half English by descent.
Perhaps you've heard of my forbears, Lords Aberdasher and Costermonger, and Sir 'Arry Donkeyboi of 'Amstead 'Eath?
Pete
Pete
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ned
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 03:58 PM |
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hmm. not sure about that pete Alan is ok, as I gather he actually used to live in england, but he was from up north, so that's borderline in
itself 
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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Hellfire
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 04:20 PM |
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<rant>
Another day, another manufacturer.... if we carry this on, then as said - it will restrict if not kill Kit Car manufacturer's.
All of the major mass manufacturer's do not put a CE mark on their products for a reason. It's fit for purpose... therefore assumed
as safe by the typical motoring fraternity, we are literally putting our lives in their hands.
However, if they did put a CE mark on it and some chav got into it and caused chaos. Who becomes liable, the driver or the manufacturer?
No manufacturer of cars can gaurantee 100% it's safe operation either kit or mass produced. Anyone had a BRAND NEW car that works perfectly?
If you buy a Kit Car or Kit, common sense tells you it's down to your skill and interpretation as a builder to make it as safe as you see fit.
Therefore, you must accept an element of risk in it's manufacture, a kind of disclaimer.
The Lotus 7 design is flawed in it's very nature, that's essential to it's character - lets all be sensible and not succumb to the
US's system of claim culture. Let the companies get on with what they do best - stop the knocking and calling. In the end it does us all no
good.
<rant over>
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dozracing
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 04:23 PM |
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Time to post...... Not been holding back but away packaging up a lovely Melon Yellow kit for a nice Swedish customer.
Its good to see that you have in the main understood the reasoning behind the new terms and conditions added to the website. An new line will be added
saying that all parts are for racing purposes only.
As such i'm sure you will all understand that they don't preclude me from acting the nice guy that i am. If you purchase something from me
and have a problem, you can all rest assured that as ever i will bend over backwards to correct the error. What i will not take responsibilty for is
being made the target of an easy money claim by the likes of Syd and buddies.
My disclaimer overstates for obvious reasons that the customer must take responsibility for the suitability of the components that they buy for their
intended use.
As you will all appreciate from the almost universal praise for the quality of the parts that i supply, i don't make and supply tosh. Neither am
i un-qualified or in experienced.
My CV once again:-
Bachelor of engineering, Mechanical Engineering
3 years Design engineer for Dynamic Suspensions Ltd, responsible for advanced suspension systems design for F1, WRC, DTM and Le Mans prototypes, as
well as Dodge Viper and Prowler, Shelby Series One and CSX road cars.
6 years Design Engineer for John Barnard, firstly at Prost, then laterly working on behalf of Porsche, McLaren, Jaguar, BAR, Ferrari. Designer of
composite crash structures, composite, titanium, and steel suspension components, brake system and transmission/rear crach structures.
5 years running GTS tuning, touch wood as yet no item has been retuned as faulty, or failed.
My terms and conditions are in reaction to the attitudes adopted by the minority and supported by Syd.
Ltd company doesn't offer protection for directors in these kind of cliam under the new government law. I'm currently protected by far
more than any insurance or Ltd company status would possibly allow.
Kind regards,
Darren
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PLEASE NOTE: This user is a trader who has not signed up for the LocostBuilders registration scheme. If this post is advertising a commercial product or service, please report it by clicking here.
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 04:26 PM |
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For those who don't think I actively contribute constructively.............
There are many who I correspond with via u2u who would say different.
It's just that I prefer to keep any advice and methods on a one-one basis.
Darren,
you completely misunderstand my intent. I DO NOT, in any way, support the 'ambulance chaser' law fraternity. To me they are anathema,
abhorrent, the lowest form of life. And the cause of high insurance premiums.
On the other hand, the insurance companies will take someone they see to be liable, to court to recover their own payouts. I used to work for a man
who owned insurance companies. He sold them, because he didn't like the way the industry was going.( And Lloyds)
My aim is to make people aware of what they are using. The manufacturers must stop plagiarism(and I'm not pointing at you, as your parts are
unique), and properly engineer their products.
STATUS has been around for years. There is absolutely no reason why any manufacturer of kit parts should not spend the few hundred pounds to have
their critical parts tested by STATUS, to ensure integrity. Just being a member doesn't mean your output is above reproach. You (meaning any
manufacturer)should do as I put previously.
Get your critical parts tested, and show the certificate. For your own peace of mind, if nothing else.
Syd,
[Edited on 26/10/04 by Syd Bridge]
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chrisg
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 05:39 PM |
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Keep it up Syd
then none of us will have a kit car
And few thousand people will be out of work.
Still never mind eh?
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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Spyderman
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 05:43 PM |
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Syd, you were pointing the finger and did single out Darren and his products!
Overall I agree with the outcome of this discussion and that it has brought to the front the conditions of use and disclaimers etc.
However the way you went about bringing it to point leaves a lot to be desired!
If you were to buy a suspension component that was designed for a sidevalve engined car with a max HP of about 50hp and then used it in a car with a
big block Chevy pushing out 500hp would you be suprised if it broke? It may well hold up to pottering about, but it's life cycle would be
drastically reduced.
Fit for use can have such a wide range of meaning depending on your viewpoint. From the guy with the 500hp that he considers normal to the guy
with 50hp. After all that is what these cars were designed for in the first place. The fact that with little modification they can tolerate more HP
and higher cornering forces is tribute to the construction and design of these cars.
Whatever happened to the trial and error method of improvement in this country? It used to be the main way of development for amatuer and professional
alike.
It seems now that if someone somewhere along the line never predicted a possible use or abuse of one of their components they have the weight of the
world dropped on them from a great height!
A very sad state of affairs indeed.
Terry
Spyderman
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Cita
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| posted on 26/10/04 at 06:28 PM |
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Aldo i generally agree with what Syd had said,i think a U2U to Darren would have been the right way to do it instead of the open forum.
You (Syd) at least have given the impression that this was a personnal attack on Darren.
NEVER,never awake a sleeping dog!!!!!
Enjoy the kitcar/amateur car built scenery as long as it lasts in it's true nature cause the beginning of the end allready has started.
It only takes one idiot in the right (government) place to destroy this last bit of car freedom.
I dont think it was your intention Syd but your little post has started something that probably is ireversible.
It will not be long before people have to sign a disclaimer for any part they like to buy from anybody.
Is this good or bad, i dont know but it certainly will not improve the friendship and "lending a helping hand" mentality among the locost
builders.
(I'm getting to old for this sh#t)
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