Sierra
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| posted on 8/8/14 at 08:49 PM |
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Rolling road results
So I took my car to TTS performance in silverstone today to have a little tuning session. Here's the results
I've got to admit that I'm a little disappointed 
They found that the car was running very lean so sorted that out but said that if I want more power I need to think about water meth injection and a
smaller supercharger pulley.
I'm not sure what the process is but they didn't really check the engine physically for any issues. Spark plugs, injectors ect.
Also my car seems to be idling very strangely, keeps dropping right down to almost stall then back to 1100rpm. the only differences since it was ok
are the new air filter and I teed the vacuum hose and connected up the fpr which was disconnected before. TTS said that they were going to map it with
the fpr connected as that's what the recommend but idle was still like this when I got home.
[Edited on 8/8/14 by Sierra]
[Edited on 8/8/14 by Sierra]
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jeffw
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| posted on 8/8/14 at 09:20 PM |
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What is the engine spec?
If they are talking about water/meth you would seem to have a heating issue, I presume this is a Rotrex engine?
[Edited on 8/8/14 by jeffw]
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Sierra
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| posted on 8/8/14 at 09:43 PM |
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So it's a standard blacktop with eaton m45. The inlet temp got upto 80'c when run at max, the next step would be to get a smaller pulley
to up the psi but water/meth would be needed to keep the temps down
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 8/8/14 at 10:30 PM |
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seems odd, thats the sort of power your would expect from a stock zetec without the blower.
what engine management have you got?
agree with TTS about the air temp issue, i think the M45 is too small for a 2.0L zetec unless you only running a couple of PSI boost, with water
injection you could run abit more boost, but in my opinion bigger blower with the same gearing mite be the best way to go.
assuming non-intercooled?
8-10psi of boost on an otherwise stock 2.0L should give around 200BHP if you can get the charge temp under control
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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stevebubs
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| posted on 8/8/14 at 10:34 PM |
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Is this wheels or flywheel?
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Sierra
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| posted on 8/8/14 at 10:37 PM |
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That's what I originally thought. The management is omex 500.
With a 55mm pulley the charger will be at 9-10psi so should be good with water/meth.
Problem with a larger charger is the lack of space I have, if I was to go that route it would mean a complete change of setup which would be a lot of
money. I'm hoping that TTS can have a play once I get the bits together or find a company that will fit it for me and retune.
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Sierra
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| posted on 8/8/14 at 10:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stevebubs
Is this wheels or flywheel?
I'm not sure to be honest, it doesn't say.
The last rolling road a few years back was 175bhp 163lbft but again not sure if that's fly or wheels
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dave_424
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| posted on 8/8/14 at 11:01 PM |
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States corrected crank power in the lower right corner
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johnemms
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| posted on 9/8/14 at 03:35 AM |
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Bailey Performance - Got 155bhp & 168lbft Torque out of an old 61k ford cougar 125ps blacktop..
Would have liked to have found a more powerful 135ps motor.. 
 
Description
 
Description
[Edited on 9/8/14 by johnemms]
Own chassis & Build - First time pass!!
"7's" aren't really "cars", they are 'experiences"
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jeffw
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| posted on 9/8/14 at 07:53 AM |
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So 80 deg C and what boost did it register? I know Rich would have been looking at the boost..
This is mine on the same dyno
[Edited on 9/8/14 by jeffw]
[Edited on 9/8/14 by jeffw]
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Sierra
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| posted on 9/8/14 at 08:25 AM |
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He didn't mention the boost to be honest but last dyno showed that it was running 6psi.
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jeffw
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| posted on 9/8/14 at 09:50 AM |
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80 Deg C and 6psi doesn't sound great. You would do a lot better with an intercooler.
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Sierra
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| posted on 9/8/14 at 10:11 AM |
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80'c was the max it went to few a split second. While driving it sits around 55-60,an intercooler would be ideal but would need a complete make
over and a fair few £s
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adithorp
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| posted on 9/8/14 at 10:48 AM |
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I'd be disapointed with those figures.
As I see it you can...
a. Spend a load of time/money to do it properly and get the power it should be capable of (see Jeffs chart).
b. Spend a load of time/(and less) money trying to get the best from what you have with altered pulley, etc.
c. Sell off the forced induction bit's that don't work and fit bike carbs to get the same power (chester sports cars kit makes 160bhp+
out of the box I believe) with a load less gubbins/weight attached.
d. Leave it as is with little more than standard power and a load of extra weight and complication.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 9/8/14 at 11:19 AM |
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the last thing you would do is remove the injection and fit bike carbs, you still need some sort of ECU for the ignition.
there is a reason why no production car or serous racer uses carbs, they are a thing of the past.
the only time you will see a race car on carbs it due to race regulations, even autograssers are switching to EFI.
dont get me wrong, we tune all sorts of carbs including bike but EFI is the way to go.
www.baileyperformance.co.uk
www.facebook.com/baileyperformance
[Edited on 9/8/14 by BaileyPerformance]
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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jwhatley
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| posted on 9/8/14 at 11:43 AM |
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Hi,
Hope you don't mind my input, Ive played with the M45 a lot on previous cars and i hope you'd appreciate my input.
The M45 is a very old design, infact its a derivative of a blower used to pressurise aircraft that date back to the 2nd world war.
I fitted an M45 to a 1.6L 16v VW engine, managed 242bhp @10psi out of it. But went through 3 superchargers in the process, they hate heat and become
extremely inefficient at temperatures above 80c.
I eventually ditched the M45 and bought a rotrex C30-94, and pushed it to 290bhp before selling up and breaking the whole car for bits!
I found that realistically you may only see 380-400cfm @10psi from one of these, although on the mini people have claimed some pretty big figures with
smaller pulleys and better IC setups.
If your boost temp is 80c, its likely that the charger casing itself is running close to 90c. From previous experience your charger will not last long
running those sort of case temps, the clearances tighten up on the rotors and cause more heat. It will eventually damage one of the roller bearings in
the end, or knock the charger rotor timing out which will destroy the charger (gears are only press fit).
Can you show us some pictures of the setup and are you running a blow through setup? (TB after charger w/ dump valve or recirc valve) Running blow
through with recirc fitted after an IC is the best way to drop temps internally, and the air you are recirculating will cool the charger and intake
temps when not WOT.
I am good friends with a guy that builds kits that uses the M45 on A series mini's, and we did a lot of development with the kit he uses on the
mini for my engine, he uses a water jacket and no IC for his setups. We built a water jacket system that goes round the charger and removes case
heating, runs its own small water pump, reservoir and radiator. This dropped intake temps by 20c alone.
See in this picture, the water jacket we fitted to the charger.
To be honest, on a 2.0l your pushing the charger to its limits, hense the low boost figures, the engine is starting to flow more than the charger can
produce and the boost is dropping. Add the temperature in to it and the boost drops even more due to the increased inefficiency. You should be able to
spin the charger faster for a few more psi but only when you have got the heat management issues addressed.
Try fitting an IC and a charger water jacket setup. I still have my kit lying about in the garage if you fancy using it? I have a pump, radiator and
jacket. All you'll need is a small heater tank and some pipe.
If you drop that boost temp by 30c you will see 200bhp.
[Edited on 9/8/14 by jwhatley]
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jeffw
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| posted on 9/8/14 at 02:56 PM |
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Basically all the supercharger is doing, currently, is overcoming the losses from the supercharger to put you back where you would be without. You
either need to sort the cooling or remove the charger.
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adithorp
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| posted on 9/8/14 at 04:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
the last thing you would do is remove the injection and fit bike carbs, you still need some sort of ECU for the ignition.
there is a reason why no production car or serous racer uses carbs, they are a thing of the past.
the only time you will see a race car on carbs it due to race regulations, even autograssers are switching to EFI.
dont get me wrong, we tune all sorts of carbs including bike but EFI is the way to go.
www.baileyperformance.co.uk
www.facebook.com/baileyperformance
[Edited on 9/8/14 by BaileyPerformance]
Ooops, was thinking TB's and typed carbs.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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mark chandler
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| posted on 9/8/14 at 07:02 PM |
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What generation charger is it? If 5th generation not much you can do but a third generation will respond well to porting.
The m90 ported 3rd generation on my DB7 gets up to 40 degrees on a pretty poor charge cooler, whatever you do without getting that inlet temp right
down you are wasting your time, water injection is just a plaster.
Regards Mark
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Sierra
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| posted on 10/8/14 at 07:27 AM |
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I'd have to check what gen.
Do you guys recommend that I upgrade the injectors, spark plugs ect as they are standard at the min. If so which ones?
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
What generation charger is it? If 5th generation not much you can do but a third generation will respond well to porting.
The m90 ported 3rd generation on my DB7 gets up to 40 degrees on a pretty poor charge cooler, whatever you do without getting that inlet temp right
down you are wasting your time, water injection is just a plaster.
Regards Mark
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jwhatley
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| posted on 10/8/14 at 12:43 PM |
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Black blades is a 5th generation, i don't think that 3rd gens were fitted to mini's. They were fitted on the merc CLK or the SLK 180
kompressor IIRC.
5th gen had a coating allowing a closer tolerance on the blades, and apparently were better for cooling as less heat transfer.
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mark chandler
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| posted on 10/8/14 at 01:25 PM |
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Not much work possible then on this item, unless the injectors are running 100% open no point in changing them, cooler plugs may assist but that
intake temperature has to be quelled.
Putting on a smaller pulley will just exasperate the problem, you need to cool the charge!
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 10/8/14 at 02:04 PM |
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An intercooler would work, but my napkin calculations only suggests that will only give 10% extra power at your current boost.
Out of interest; what is your exhaust setup?
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jeffw
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| posted on 10/8/14 at 02:26 PM |
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Either ditch the supercharger and put a normal ITB setup on there and get 170BHP or sort the temps and then drop the pulley size for more boost. I
would be surprised if you got much over 180-190 with the M45.
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Sierra
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| posted on 10/8/14 at 08:06 PM |
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At the minute I'm definitely going to keep the charger and have a play with getting the temps down and smaller pulley. It may end up being a
mistake but hey where's the fun in giving up and just getting a ITB setup. The car runs very well and I love the constant power and the noise is
addictive , I'm just being greedy asking for more power as it's not exactly slow as is and my driving probably doesn't get the
best out of the car.
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