dhutch
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 09:06 AM |
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RAC Rollbar - What is it.
Proberbly a very noobie question, but ive not managed to find much on the search. (is there a way to search by topic titles only).
But what is defined as a RAC rollbar, and why is it called that?
I would want to know that in the case of the worse happening i would have given myself a half decent chance of telling the tale.
- So at minimum i would say a decently mounted proberbly braced roll hoop was in order, is that basicaly what is ment by a rac bar, and opposed to
anything else.
- What are people thoughts on full four or six point cages. I notice a fair few (about half) of the MK at bruntingthorpe had cages. And of cause all
racing locosts do.
Cheers.
Daniel
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mookaloid
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 10:24 AM |
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A RAC approved roll bar is one constructed using the bluebook guidelines.
For a Seven this would mean that the bar should be of a suitable height - i.e. if you draw a line from the top of the engine to the top of the bar
then that line should be at least an inch above the drivers helmeted head.
It should also have a diagonal brace to stop 'lozenging' and backstays and possibly a brace down to the passenger footwell.
I have seen scrutineers fail a fully caged seven because it failed the line test above the drivers helmet even though the cage would stop the driver
being harmed in the event of a roll.
HTH
Cheers
Mark
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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dhutch
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 10:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
A RAC approved roll bar is one constructed using the bluebook guidelines.
For a Seven this would mean that the bar should be of a suitable height - i.e. if you draw a line from the top of the engine to the top of the bar
then that line should be at least an inch above the drivers helmeted head.
It should also have a diagonal brace to stop 'lozenging' and backstays and possibly a brace down to the passenger footwell.
Right, fair enough.
- So if its sold as an RAC rollbar, or if a cars sold as having an RAC rollbar, there is potentally some form of guarantee that its safe and adequate
for the job? Unless i guess the person is telling porks, or doesnt actually know, or something?
- Do you actually have to get the design or manufatored product certified or anything. Or can any one buy/download the book and bodge some old scaff
bar into a semi sensable shape with pigion welds and p38?
I know proberbly a lot of people might not worry, and obvously im not planning to crash.
- However at the same time, as i say, i would like to hope whatever protection is there is largly as i seams and upto the job. Otherwise its just
pointless, and nothing more than a center point for a false sence of security!
Also, to clarify, is this is the same RAC as the orange transits and bad tv ad's?
Daniel
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 10:57 AM |
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top of the engine? hmm would that include a glass fiber airbox or need to be the cyclinder heads or rocker covers i.e something that isn't just
going to snap off if rubbed along the ground with the weight of the car on it?
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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D Beddows
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 11:11 AM |
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I'm afraid it's a case of buyer beware. In a worse case scenario someone could make a roll bar that looks like it is built to the Blue
Book specs out of aluminium tube, bolt it to the chassis with rivinuts and call it an 'RAC Rollbar'. It wouldn't pass any form of
scruitineering and it wouldn't protect you in any way if you rolled the car but there's no legal requirement to provide proof that it is
to the proper spec. when you sell a car. However I would suggest it would be wise for the seller to only say it meets RAC standards if it actually
does (as you might well have some comeback otherwise) but if it just looks like an RAC spec rollbar then it's probably safest to assume
it's not until you can prove otherwise.
TBH most of that only matters if you're planning on competing in some form of motorsport mind you but it's a good thing to ask a seller
about in any case.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 11:58 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by D Beddows
I'm afraid it's a case of buyer beware. In a worse case scenario someone could make a roll bar that looks like it is built to the Blue
Book specs out of aluminium tube, bolt it to the chassis with rivinuts and call it an 'RAC Rollbar'. It wouldn't pass any form of
scruitineering and it wouldn't protect you in any way if you rolled the car but there's no legal requirement to provide proof that it is
to the proper spec. when you sell a car. However I would suggest it would be wise for the seller to only say it meets RAC standards if it actually
does (as you might well have some comeback otherwise) but if it just looks like an RAC spec rollbar then it's probably safest to assume
it's not until you can prove otherwise.
TBH most of that only matters if you're planning on competing in some form of motorsport mind you but it's a good thing to ask a seller
about in any case.
I remember reading about someone who bought a drag race car only to find out when prepping it, that the cage was infact only tack welded together and
that the 'welds' were actually finger smoothed body filler!!! 
Buyer beware alright…
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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D Beddows
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 12:25 PM |
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There are tales as well of people rolling up for scruitineering with roll bars joined together with that liquid metal repair stuff and/or rivinuts and
the scrutineers pulling the bar off the car by hand in front of them 
Probably an urban myth tbh but after some of the bodges I've seen maybe not........ 
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mookaloid
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 12:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
top of the engine? hmm would that include a glass fiber airbox or need to be the cyclinder heads or rocker covers i.e something that isn't just
going to snap off if rubbed along the ground with the weight of the car on it?
It would include the first hard part at the front of the car where it would obviously rest in the event of a roll. I said the engine as that is
usually the highest structural point at the front but it obviously isn't the case on say a middy or maybe not on a BEC
Cheers
mark
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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mookaloid
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 01:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dhutch
quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
A RAC approved roll bar is one constructed using the bluebook guidelines.
For a Seven this would mean that the bar should be of a suitable height - i.e. if you draw a line from the top of the engine to the top of the bar
then that line should be at least an inch above the drivers helmeted head.
It should also have a diagonal brace to stop 'lozenging' and backstays and possibly a brace down to the passenger footwell.
Right, fair enough.
- So if its sold as an RAC rollbar, or if a cars sold as having an RAC rollbar, there is potentally some form of guarantee that its safe and adequate
for the job? Unless i guess the person is telling porks, or doesnt actually know, or something?
- Do you actually have to get the design or manufatored product certified or anything. Or can any one buy/download the book and bodge some old scaff
bar into a semi sensable shape with pigion welds and p38?
I know proberbly a lot of people might not worry, and obvously im not planning to crash.
- However at the same time, as i say, i would like to hope whatever protection is there is largly as i seams and upto the job. Otherwise its just
pointless, and nothing more than a center point for a false sence of security!
Also, to clarify, is this is the same RAC as the orange transits and bad tv ad's?
Daniel
I believe that a manufactured roll bar or cage said to be approved would need to have a certificate from the manufacturer.
Failing that there are standards for inspecting it such as evidence of the materials used grinding and flattening of welds is not permitted, mounting
points have to be of suitable strength etc.
What are you wanting to know for? Are you going to be competing in Motorsport?
The chances are that even if you are competing in say hill climbs or sprints you won't be asked for any certificates and as long as it looks as
if it is ok and it passes the line test you should have no problems.
HTH
Mark
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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dhutch
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 01:23 PM |
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Well, im looking to buy into the sport with a second hand seven.
Almost certainly no ever going to compete, but certianly planning to attend a number of trackdays, and drive it frequently, and at times with
gusto.
Obvously again, im not planning to crash. but having slithered of the road on at about 20 in a tintop on the way back from runing my sister up the
road just before this christmas, only to have a peice of fence come through the windscreen, miss my head by inches, and put a whacking great dent in
the tailgate. Im quite aware of how suddenly and quickly things can go wrong.
Hence, while doing 110 down the back stright, or on my imfamous private road, it would be nice to think that the rollbar would actually take the
weight of the car off my head somewhat if the worse did happen.
Basicaly, im just trying to work out what to look for in a car, and ive seen 'rac rollbar' come up in the description a lot.
Cheers, Daniel.
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dhutch
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 01:25 PM |
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Also as i say, does anyone have an thoughts or information full roll cages?
- Ive not ridden or sat in a car that has them. How much to they intrude your veiw and entry/exit from the car? How safe is a rollhoop compaired to a
full cage?
This is the mk indy cage ive seen, looks like maybe quite a good compromise, although there doesnt seam to be much side protection.
- Maybe that could be added onto the existing cage.
- It also looks like it belongs with the car, very easy on the eye compaired to many.
Also, whats does and arm restraint consist of? Length of webbing from wrist to wheel?
Daniel
[Edited on 15/5/08 by dhutch]
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mookaloid
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 01:49 PM |
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Ok well you don't need RAC certification for what you are going to use it for.
I would say a cage is going to be noticeably safer ideally with some side impact bars too.
In a roll with just a hoop the biggest problem might be your arms flailing about and getting struck - ripped off etc. You could use restraining straps
round your forearms and legs to stop this or you could have side bars like this:
.jpg)
I don't think that visibility will be impaired much but some cages can be tricky to get in and out of - some Caterhams can only be accessed
through the 'roof'
Hope that helps.
Cheers
mark
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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D Beddows
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 02:04 PM |
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Entry through the top is usually the 'easiest' on Locosts too but it does depend how tall/fat/bendy you are Vision's not an
issue
One thing to bear in mind is that if you're installing a full cage on an already built car is that you usually need to add a couple of extra
chassis tubes to brace it properly so you can end up taking quite a bit of the car apart....
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 02:17 PM |
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I’m for just doing it properly with a full cage, side bars and nets. We’ve all seen the u-tube clips where even minor mistakes end up with spectacular
crashes, what’s the point in skimping on safety equipment? A full cage isn't even expensive.
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 09:21 PM |
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arm restraints - bit of webbing attatched to your harness
youll need them for almost anything even a RWYB at santa pod .
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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iank
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 09:42 PM |
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Time for the scary video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svzmp56YPY0
Now full cage or just a rear hoop?
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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dhutch
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| posted on 12/5/08 at 09:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by iank
Time for the scary video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svzmp56YPY0
Now full cage or just a rear hoop?
Yeah, i knew that would be that before i even clicked it.
- Not seen the start before tho with the car-cam view.
Maddess.
Daniel
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procomp
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| posted on 13/5/08 at 08:15 AM |
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Hi just to clear a few thing up here.
1 reference to a RAC bar in nonsense. The RAC no longer have anything to do with the running of motorsport . Theses days regulations are run by the
MSA and the governing body overall the FIA.
Regarding current regs as they stand a rollbar/hoop ect to comply with the MSA blue book must be constructed from 1" 3/4 or 45mm material that
meets a strength laid out in the book. Anything in smaller material must be put forward for simulation testing by MIRA who will run a number of tests
on the cage and just as important the chassis it is being attached to also.
For full rolcages there is the same basic rules ie 44mm tubing anything less must be put forward for testing.
However the thing that you have to take into consideration is the desighn of the cage. there are set desighnes in the blue book that must be followed
or if deviated from again put forward for testing. Also there is the fact that there are many people and manufacturers who are supplying roll hoops
and full cages that DO NOT comply with the basic requirements that the blue book lays out. only the weekend owners of one popular car where told that
there full cages do not comply with any regulation due to the double bends on the front main hoop and that the front to rear tubes had an angle in
them that certainly dose not comply.
So for competition use you must be careful to fully check what it is you are intending to buy or construct.
For road use and track day use it would certainly be wise to use a desighn that complied with the blue book regulation as those designs are proved
ect. Although there is currently nothing to stop you building or using something that has more chance of injuring you rather than protecting you.
Although there are more and more trackday organisers who are getting fussy as to what they will allow on track. And are insisting that they must
comply with the MSA/blue book.
If serious i would do some serious research first as there are many people and manufacturers who just do not understand the regulations as they stand
and are offering INCORRECT advice and product for use under MSA use.
HTH cheers Matt
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dhutch
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| posted on 13/5/08 at 08:37 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi just to clear a few thing up here.
1 reference to a RAC bar in nonsense. The RAC no longer have anything to do with the running of motorsport . Theses days regulations are run by the
MSA and the governing body overall the FIA.
Regarding current regs as they stand a rollbar/hoop ect to comply with the MSA blue book must be constructed from 1" 3/4 or 45mm material that
meets a strength laid out in the book. Anything in smaller material must be put forward for simulation testing by MIRA who will run a number of tests
on the cage and just as important the chassis it is being attached to also.
For full rolcages there is the same basic rules ie 44mm tubing anything less must be put forward for testing.
However the thing that you have to take into consideration is the desighn of the cage. there are set desighnes in the blue book that must be followed
or if deviated from again put forward for testing. Also there is the fact that there are many people and manufacturers who are supplying roll hoops
and full cages that DO NOT comply with the basic requirements that the blue book lays out. only the weekend owners of one popular car where told that
there full cages do not comply with any regulation due to the double bends on the front main hoop and that the front to rear tubes had an angle in
them that certainly dose not comply.
So for competition use you must be careful to fully check what it is you are intending to buy or construct.
For road use and track day use it would certainly be wise to use a desighn that complied with the blue book regulation as those designs are proved
ect. Although there is currently nothing to stop you building or using something that has more chance of injuring you rather than protecting you.
Although there are more and more trackday organisers who are getting fussy as to what they will allow on track. And are insisting that they must
comply with the MSA/blue book.
If serious i would do some serious research first as there are many people and manufacturers who just do not understand the regulations as they stand
and are offering INCORRECT advice and product for use under MSA use.
HTH cheers Matt
Matt, thankyou very much for your post.
- I think it really answers the question, and confirms my fears that potentially even reputable manufactures are producing cages with do not comply
with any form of regs.
For the sake of what im doing (road and trackdays) is sounds like proberbly my best bet is to optain a copy of the blue book, read what it says to get
an idea of wha is required, and then make sure whatever i buy appears to fall within the remit of a safe design.
And at the end of the day partly it has to be a case of common sence like buying anything else. I've seen a lot of proper race-spec cages
(saxmax, 2cv, locost, etc) and i have a fairly good grasp/knowlage/instinct about what is strong, and hopfully what a good weld looks like, compaired
to filler or something where half the skill has been with a angle grinder not a welding torch.
Daniel
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