mr henderson
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 11:15 AM |
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Pros and cons of combined wings/front end designs
A good few years ago there were at least two kit cars that had a combined wing/front end design
The Dutton Phaeton (Mk2)
and the Sylva Star
I personally like these (I even built a Dutton (though that was mainly because it was cheap)) and can see no reason why the idea and style isn't
still perfectly valid.
All opinions welcomed
John
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 11:28 AM |
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Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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chris_smith
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 11:36 AM |
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im with mr w on this one
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mr henderson
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 11:45 AM |
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Any particular reasons?
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bob
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 11:46 AM |
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One small knock could end up a big ££ repair on one piece back and one piece front fibreglass kits, at least cycle wings and nosecones are easilly
replaced/fixed.
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ReMan
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 12:01 PM |
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Ford along with other major manufactureers do quite a good job of blending the wings and front....
Or do you want a lotus 7? 
[Edited on 9/7/08 by ReMan]
 
Rescued attachment fiesta_2col.jpg
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mr henderson
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 12:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
Ford along with other major manufactureers do quite a good job of blending the wings and front....
Or do you want a lotus 7?
So do Volkswagen
But I don't specifically want a Lotus 7, just a nice car
John
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Humbug
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 12:06 PM |
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I've often thought about that type of front - would keep cr@p off the front suspension and make it a tiny bit more aerodynamic. My personal
preference would be a "normal" type of nose cone shape (i.e. not square like the Dutton) with the enclosed wheel arches. To get over the
possible expense/hassle if a wing gets knocked, there is no reason why the wings couldn't bolt on like rear ones. Also, you could still make a
separate bonnet with a bit of thought on fixings at the front, or have a separate bonnet bolted to the nose so the whole lot hinges for access.
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iank
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 12:07 PM |
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I like the integrated nose/bonnet look (F27 and early Striker mkII, but not so much the integrated wings.
Purely a style thing for me so do whatever makes you happy.
The cost of having a bang and having to replace the lot is a valid one unless you have separate cycle wings that bolt onto the bonnet moulding.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 12:13 PM |
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I've gotta be honest i think those two are pretty ugly and think the more enclosed shapes with the wings blended in more work better for me
rather than the rear wings being very se7en-esque
Something along the lines of the RAW Fulcrum
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bob
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 12:17 PM |
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getting away from the 7 style then, i remember seing a kit at stoneleigh a few years back (Dodge Viper style) that has seperate bonnet but single
piece front wings valance and slam plate.
The card did look good with smooth lines, but i am sure i have seen the model since with seperate wings so there must be a reason for the change and i
can only think manufacturing costs comes into play.
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D Beddows
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 12:34 PM |
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I'm actually with Mr Henderson on this one (a bit  - I'll need a bit of convincing on the Dutton front!) I think this actually a pretty
good looking car
[img] [/img]
especially if you compare it to a Vindicator or even an old style Robin Hood....... or maybe Its just me
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mr henderson
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 01:00 PM |
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We've discussed the aesthetics, but there hasn't been too much talk about weight, aerodynamics etc.
In case anyone was wondering, I wasn't proposing that either of the designs should be copied, just the underlying principles
John
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indykid
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 01:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bob
getting away from the 7 style then, i remember seing a kit at stoneleigh a few years back (Dodge Viper style) that has seperate bonnet but single
piece front wings valance and slam plate.
The card did look good with smooth lines, but i am sure i have seen the model since with seperate wings so there must be a reason for the change and i
can only think manufacturing costs comes into play.
i seem to remember reading in a kit car magazine, can't remember which one, that it was originally a one piece moulding but it made it look like
a cheap copy of a viper.... which obviously it is. the shut lines from the seperate panels were put back in to make it look more authentic, no doubt
increasing cost from having more flanges and seperate moulds.
tom
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Jubal
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 02:10 PM |
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I have recently become interested in the aerodyamics side of things. However, I think the Fury design already does the enclosed kit car thing rather
well. The LMP look also interests me. Spire/Radical etc.
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bob
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 02:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by indykid
quote:
Originally posted by bob
getting away from the 7 style then, i remember seing a kit at stoneleigh a few years back (Dodge Viper style) that has seperate bonnet but single
piece front wings valance and slam plate.
The card did look good with smooth lines, but i am sure i have seen the model since with seperate wings so there must be a reason for the change and i
can only think manufacturing costs comes into play.
i seem to remember reading in a kit car magazine, can't remember which one, that it was originally a one piece moulding but it made it look like
a cheap copy of a viper.... which obviously it is. the shut lines from the seperate panels were put back in to make it look more authentic, no doubt
increasing cost from having more flanges and seperate moulds.
tom
Thats the one tom i'm sure,seems strange to make the changes for those reasons as it was a dead horse from the off. I did some searching and now
realise what a pile of sh1te it was.
Isnt the midas range a one piece affair ?
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MikeCapon
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 03:05 PM |
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What about this one?
[img][/img]
www.shock-factory.co.uk
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 05:05 PM |
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aerodynamics , use of a std radiator , intercooler .
SVA , No nut and bolt covers .
Can use a better chassis for layout and hanging things off , the fisher fury as an example .
things against it , uniqueness , in that you cant just buy a nosecone to fit a 'book ' chassis .
i personally prefer the full bodied type .
and have in fact bought some dutton bodywork to pursue this avenue so that more std parts can be used, and design a better more practical chassis .
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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mr henderson
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 05:43 PM |
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As far as the aerodynamics are concerned, I think everybody agrees that enclosed wheels are better.
In effect, then this means that the issue as fas as LSIS are concerned is whether the open are between the front and rear arches, such as we see on
the Dutton and Sylva designs, is better or worse than continuing the bodywork as would be done on an LMP, or in the picture above provided by
MikeCapon?
I should imagine, though I don't know, that the continued bodywork would be better, but it would definitely be heavier and make access more
difficult.
Perhaps the combined wings/front end should be seen as a compromise aerodymanic solution
John
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mr henderson
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 05:44 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
As far as the aerodynamics are concerned, I think everybody agrees that enclosed wheels are better.
In effect, then this means that the issue as fas as LSIS are concerned is whether the open area between the front and rear arches, such as we see on
the Dutton and Sylva designs, is better or worse than continuing the bodywork as would be done on an LMP, or in the picture above provided by
MikeCapon?
I should imagine, though I don't know, that the continued bodywork would be better, but it would definitely be heavier and make access more
difficult.
Perhaps the combined wings/front end should be seen as a compromise aerodymanic solution
John
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Mr Clive
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| posted on 9/7/08 at 05:54 PM |
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How about something like donkervoort have done?
Its not the prettiest car but the concept could be a good starting point
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RK
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| posted on 10/7/08 at 01:47 AM |
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There are not many times one can use this word, but this one seems to fit: "GHASTLY"
However, it is a starting point, as said.
 
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RK
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| posted on 10/7/08 at 01:48 AM |
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another
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WanchaiWarrior
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| posted on 10/7/08 at 05:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by RK
There are not many times one can use this word, but this one seems to fit: "GHASTLY"
However, it is a starting point, as said.
But then again, the builder (Kasper) has a road going clubbie, plus a changeable front that aids in aero's when he's on track, which if
memory serves, improves his lap times compared to other similar cars.
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RK
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| posted on 10/7/08 at 05:07 PM |
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Sorry, I was referring to the Donkeyvoort. It may be practical, as long as you can get in, but it looks, as we may say here in Canada, "like
sh*t". The NZ car looks amazing. He should sell those front ends. I'd buy one as long as he can get them to NA within a reasonable
amount.
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