snoopy
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 11:54 PM |
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EDITED hi guys thought i would post on this subject i couldn't log in for ages but fozzie sorted it out for me many thanks fozzie .
well first post and nothing but grief again welcome back nothings changed :mad
[Edited on 3/3/11 by snoopy]
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loggyboy
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 12:02 AM |
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I have to agree that people should really try to proof read their posts. however Snoopys posts was not that bad, compared to some others ive read here
recently.
If your gonna spend all that time making a valuable contribution to a website, then may as well make it as legible as you can!
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mad-butcher
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 09:48 AM |
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come on charlie take no notice, you always were the sensitive type,welcome back matey
loggyboy does proof reading include yourself it's i've not ive 
tony
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loggyboy
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 09:59 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mad-butcher
come on charlie take no notice, you always were the sensitive type,welcome back matey
loggyboy does proof reading include yourself it's i've not ive
tony
I was going to add, I wouldnt expect every post to be textbook perfect, grammar, spelling and punctuation, just to the point where the reader doesnt
have to go over the post 4-5 times to understand what the writer is trying to say.
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ffrgtm
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 06:17 PM |
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I'm a mechanical engineering student so my viewpoints are probably not applicable to everyone... I tend to go through these intellectual
masturbation periods where I feel like efficiency and function should triumph over everything else.
That said... MNR uses round tubing... MK indy uses square. Sure square is easier to manufacture and easier to put together, but it is not as strong in
tension and compression (how every tube in a space frame is supposed to be loaded... loads through nodes please).
It's things like this that I feel give you an insight into the design philosophy of a certain car. The right way is never easy.
Another dead give away is if rod ends are used in bending on the outboard side of controls arms. Super easy to make, easy to adjust. If rod ends are
used on the outboard lower control arm you have an incredibly dangerous situation.
MNR uses an encapsulated spherical on the LCA... this is the best option and is very difficult to manufacture. I know because it's what we use
on our Formula Student cars and they are a pain in the ass to make. What MK uses on their outboard LCA's is absolutely ridiculous... maybe
(maybe not)_ dangerous but my god what were they thinking.
So I've only made two points but you can't deny that a even a single flaw represents a flaw in the design philosophy of the entire car.
I was going to buy an MK Indy R until their US distributor stopped being helpful. Obviously that's not MK indy's fault but I'm glad
things worked out the way they did because it got me to take a good hard look at the differences between cars. Eventually I discovered MNR.
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 06:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ffrgtm
I'm a mechanical engineering student so my viewpoints are probably not applicable to everyone... I tend to go through these intellectual
masturbation periods where I feel like efficiency and function should triumph over everything else.
Sure square is easier to manufacture and easier to put together, but it is not as strong in tension and compression .
You might want to run that one past your professors before spreading that sort of misinformation on the i'net.
Do your numbers, for a square and a round tube of equal area, and then tell me why that statement above is incorrect.
With equal area, both are the same in tension. The difference in compression comes down to buckling loads, and are little different. In pure numbers,
they are both the same. In bending, which is a rare thing in a tube in a locost/7 type car, the round is just in front, but there's not much in
it.
Cheers,
Nev.
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ffrgtm
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 06:56 PM |
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Sorry I guess I meant to say stronger per unit mass. That's the only fair comparison as a square tube is going to have about 30% more
material. Funny you say to run these numbers because I have classwork to do for strength of materials right now.
Honestly I thought the whole round is for tension and compression and square is for bending was practically a law of nature, I may have just pulled it
out of my ass though!
 My apologies for adding the already rampant misinformation on the internet. I'll straighten my story out and report back 
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procomp
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 07:44 PM |
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Hi
And the MNR with the pushrod setup that bends the lower arms is marvelous. 
Cheers Matt
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DRC INDY 7
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 08:24 PM |
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Another boring thread pulling down a well know kit manufactuer, when all the kit manufactuers have been put out of buisness because of idiots on this
forum what will you moan about next
Nobody in the whole world makes anything that is perfect cars,planes,trains,boats etc etc all have flaws 
If after all that you think a better job can be done then go ahead set up in buisness
Time to engage brain before gob speaks
[Edited on 3/3/2011 by DRC INDY 7]
[Edited on 3/3/2011 by DRC INDY 7]
https://www.facebook.com/groups/462610273778799/
Puddle Dodgers Club
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britishtrident
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 08:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ffrgtm
I'm a mechanical engineering student so my viewpoints are probably not applicable to everyone... I tend to go through these intellectual
masturbation periods where I feel like efficiency and function should triumph over everything else.
That said... MNR uses round tubing... MK indy uses square. Sure square is easier to manufacture and easier to put together, but it is not as strong in
tension and compression (how every tube in a space frame is supposed to be loaded... loads through nodes please).
It's things like this that I feel give you an insight into the design philosophy of a certain car. The right way is never easy.
Another dead give away is if rod ends are used in bending on the outboard side of controls arms. Super easy to make, easy to adjust. If rod ends are
used on the outboard lower control arm you have an incredibly dangerous situation.
MNR uses an encapsulated spherical on the LCA... this is the best option and is very difficult to manufacture. I know because it's what we use
on our Formula Student cars and they are a pain in the ass to make. What MK uses on their outboard LCA's is absolutely ridiculous... maybe
(maybe not)_ dangerous but my god what were they thinking.
So I've only made two points but you can't deny that a even a single flaw represents a flaw in the design philosophy of the entire car.
I was going to buy an MK Indy R until their US distributor stopped being helpful. Obviously that's not MK indy's fault but I'm glad
things worked out the way they did because it got me to take a good hard look at the differences between cars. Eventually I discovered MNR.
Quote " Sure square is easier to manufacture and easier to put together, but it is not as strong in tension and compression
"--- this statement is utterly and completely wrong both in theory and practice ! If you don't believe me workout the CSA and 1st and
2nd moment of area of 25mm 16swg square and round tubes. Then work out the mass in kg/m.
Compare to square section of the same leading dimensions round tube is more structurally efficient than square tube in terms of its' weight per
unit length it is not stronger than square tube in tension or compression. In any event the main consideration when designing a spaceframe
structure is not strength but stiffness and the possibility of Euler buckling.
[Edited on 3/3/11 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Mad Dave
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 08:58 PM |
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quote:
MNR uses an encapsulated spherical on the LCA... this is the best option and is very difficult to manufacture. I know because it's what we use
on our Formula Student cars and they are a pain in the ass to make. What MK uses on their outboard LCA's is absolutely ridiculous... maybe
(maybe not)_ dangerous but my god what were they thinking.
Very difficult to manufacture? Maybe for a novice
MK use a Maxi ball joint on the lower control arms. Oh my god, what were they thinking when they designed the Maxi???
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DRC INDY 7
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 09:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Dave
quote:
MNR uses an encapsulated spherical on the LCA... this is the best option and is very difficult to manufacture. I know because it's what we use
on our Formula Student cars and they are a pain in the ass to make. What MK uses on their outboard LCA's is absolutely ridiculous... maybe
(maybe not)_ dangerous but my god what were they thinking.
Very difficult to manufacture? Maybe for a novice
MK use a Maxi ball joint on the lower control arms. Oh my god, what were they thinking when they designed the Maxi???
Novice (student) same thing
https://www.facebook.com/groups/462610273778799/
Puddle Dodgers Club
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britishtrident
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 09:29 PM |
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As well taking roughly 1/2 the man hours to produce the bare chassis square section is much easier to put brackets on and panel.
Also because no chassis is a perfect space frame structure and individual members such as the lower tubes the engine mount pads bear on are loaded as
a beam in bending, a load case to which square section is better suited.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 09:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DRC INDY 7
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Dave
quote:
MNR uses an encapsulated spherical on the LCA... this is the best option and is very difficult to manufacture. I know because it's what we use
on our Formula Student cars and they are a pain in the ass to make. What MK uses on their outboard LCA's is absolutely ridiculous... maybe
(maybe not)_ dangerous but my god what were they thinking.
Very difficult to manufacture? Maybe for a novice
MK use a Maxi ball joint on the lower control arms. Oh my god, what were they thinking when they designed the Maxi???
Novice (student) same thing
and too young to have ever seen a Maxi.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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woodster
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 09:41 PM |
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Like you said snoopy nothings changed, if anything this forums got a bit more clicky and it has one or two more pricks, but welcome back anyway
(sorry for my grama and Snelling)
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DRC INDY 7
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 10:03 PM |
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The maxi
https://www.facebook.com/groups/462610273778799/
Puddle Dodgers Club
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austin man
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 10:28 PM |
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Good to see that a trader feels the need to once again have a little poke at other companies, I note that MNR and MK, GBS, MAC 1 amongst other
manafacturers havent started to slate other manafactures on this forum. For this guys, I commend and applaud your proffesionalism no doubt you too
would be able to pick holes in products supplied by others should you wish.
I always believe the best way to sell your own product is on its strengths and not to look at ways to discredit your opposition. I believe that some
of thread is driven by personal differences, biased oppinions and with a quest for financial gain by some involved in this all.
I truly see this as a forum for helping people and have received a fair level of responses and help in both car and none car related subjects saving
me large amounts of money. Hopefully I have been able to return this by offering advice and knowledge on subjects familiar to me. I feel that on the
forum there are a few hell bent on the destruction of others.
So guys whats the chance of quitting the slagging sessions off and get back to what this forum has previously excelled in
Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone
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austin man
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 10:34 PM |
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with attitude
Look like the suspension is well tried and tested
 
maxi
Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone
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britishtrident
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| posted on 3/3/11 at 10:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DRC INDY 7
The maxi
Not one of BMC/BL's better designs --- I remember encountering one that would go into two gears at the same time.
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indykid
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| posted on 4/3/11 at 12:13 AM |
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Charlie! Welcome back, old bean.
The constant squabbles on here are making it a bit of a joke of late. It's one manufacturer that's technically on the ball, but
simultaneously crushing his reputation by slating every competitor under the sun, coupled with a few keyboard warriors that are just out for an
argument.
If both parties would grow up, LB might get back to its glory days.
Stick around, MK was better with you. Hopefully LB will be too.
Tom
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woodster
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| posted on 4/3/11 at 07:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by indykid
Charlie! Welcome back, old bean.
The constant squabbles on here are making it a bit of a joke of late. It's one manufacturer that's technically on the ball, but
simultaneously crushing his reputation by slating every competitor under the sun, coupled with a few keyboard warriors that are just out for an
argument.
If both parties would grow up, LB might get back to its glory days.
Stick around, MK was better with you. Hopefully LB will be too.
Tom
Beautifully put
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ffrgtm
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| posted on 4/3/11 at 11:13 PM |
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Yes you were all right about the square vs round tubing thing... I'm really not sure how I got that in my head backwards in the first place.
Thank you guys for correcting me I was really trying to say stiffness per weight but most of the time when I type replies on a forum my brain
turns off... something I obviously need to work on.
As far as why I was so offensive about the lower balljoint thing on the indy it just looks like an afterthought to me. The outboard on the front lca
experiences a lot of stress (the highest in the whole suspension from what I know) and in this case its gotta flow through some additional fasteners?
Anyways I suppose I should not comment on it because I haven't looked at it carefully enough to knock on it as hard as I did so I take it
back.
PROCOMP, I really like your chassis, and I was talking to an MK Indy owner who said he tried to get you guys to do a chassis setup on his car and he
there were so many things wrong you couldn't do much with it. He did say that you did what you could and the car handled 1,000 times better. The
indy owner told me that if I wanted a car that was executed properly I should talk to you... but he said I would be happy with MNR also. I was really
interested in the procomp but I NEED IRS as I run at a very bumpy site.
Anyways guys maybe my subconcious is making me troll on the indy because secretly I think it looks much better than the MNR I will try to grow
up... sry again.
[Edited on 4/3/11 by ffrgtm]
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DRC INDY 7
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| posted on 4/3/11 at 11:23 PM |
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Now we can bring this thread to a end case closed
https://www.facebook.com/groups/462610273778799/
Puddle Dodgers Club
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 4/3/11 at 11:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ffrgtm
I will try to grow up...
[Edited on 4/3/11 by ffrgtm]
Hi there,
Growing up is not a neessity of this forum...
An adult interpretation of the kit manufacturers standards and reasoning for standards acheived is pretty essential however...
Your ability to say everyone is wrong regarding the square versus round tubing and then being shot down is a pretty easily forgotten thing so I
wouldn't worry about that as long as you don't make a habit of trying to teach your granny how to suck eggs...
There will always exist a party which has an allegiance to a manufacturer, and they will have an anti supporters group, just has Man United...
If you care about what you are building then you will look outside this forum and see some of the video shot of the MK winning races and the MNR
doing what it does, the Procomp doing well in the Locost series and the Westfield doing well in lots of stuff and the Caterhams doing well in loads of
stuff, but for a price etc...
It's a case of swings and rounabouts and a forum is (in my humble opinion) an awful place to discuss this over as everyone has genuine opinions,
but you cannot identify the gravity of opinions through the typed word (if you are new to the game)...
ATB
Steve
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 5/3/11 at 12:01 AM |
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Oh, also I should add that I am absolutely pished, so please disregard everything typed above!!!
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