Steve Lovelock
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| posted on 30/12/06 at 09:59 PM |
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Well I hoped I might spike a little interest with my bike verses car engine thoughts but I hardly expected to labelled as talking utter rubbish and
‘shite’.
Zxrlocost does a good job making a few extra quid selling car builders bike engines and good luck to him. However I have no wish to look up primary
reduction when the same man tells me that 122mph is ‘plenty enough’. Spend £3000 on an R1 (as in complete bike) and go do 170mph then write that 122
cuts the mustard. 3.9 to 60 sounds great until you realise that the same £3000 R1 will do it in two thirds of the time.
The video was great though, the car looked very rapid. But I note that it was overtaken by a car with just one person in. Also, it didn’t have
indicators let alone a windscreen so it is hardly the sort of thing that one could hack around the A23 / M23 on the way to work is it.
And why would anybody spend £3000 on a ZX14 engine when a Duratec with an induction kit etc could be bought and installed to provide well over 200
BHP, torque and a reverse for the same money, one could ask Caterham for a second opinion.
Smart51 seems like a nice chap too but tells us that he would never buy a bike, let alone a big bike, in other words I could easily be persuaded that
he’s either old, under the thumb or a little bit of a chicken.
£800 for a bike engine putting out 120 – 150 BHP is good value but the same will get a car engine with the same power, a reverse gear and the ability
to get you to Nuremberg and back in some degree of style.
I agree with CaLviNx, try both and not just on a track or a Sunday blast but on the way to work on a typical English day, ie hot, cold, dry, windy and
wet then make up your own mind. Me, I’m biased; buy a bike and build a car and have both worlds for the price of a second hand Ford Focus.
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 30/12/06 at 10:42 PM |
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122 mph in any 7 is adequate enough
you mentioned torque that is why I mentioned PR it has nothing to do with top speed
140 in a zx12r BEC no probs there really is not much benefit apart from a V long straight
why doesnt everyone just go and buy a bike then for three grand if thats your view
some people havent got a licence or are not interested in bikes
PS I dont sell bike engines
theres so much more for using bike engines ,up front weight, extreme handling etc
maybe an MX5 would suit you more my car had no windscreen heaters etc
and looked so much better for it
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Steve Lovelock
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| posted on 30/12/06 at 10:48 PM |
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MX5? That's a low blow
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 30/12/06 at 10:50 PM |
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the more i read your posts the more I know you dont know what your on about
the car in the vid is a fully road legal car
so its got indicators
and all the other stuff about equivalent car performance for the same money haha!
200bhp duratec would cost thousands
zx12r can be picked up for £1500 now
youd have to go a long way to compete
arrive in luxury with your flying jacket on
[Edited on 30/12/06 by zxrlocost]
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smart51
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| posted on 30/12/06 at 11:03 PM |
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98/99 R1s are basic carbed engines. 00/01 are much the same but with some small changes. 02/03 engines are very similar but fuel injection. FI
engines give smoother power delivery and slightly more torque and power. 04/05/06 engines are quite different with another 2000 RPM allowing 30 more
BHP. The gearing doesn't suit a car quite as well. The higher rev limit makes noise problems worse. The torque at the bottom end isn't
as good and so some argue that 0-40 MPH they aren't as good as earlier engines.
Carbed engines need rejetting if you change the exhaust or airbox and you will. FI engines need a power commander to do the same job. The power
commander route is more pricise and doesn't force you into compromises. It is more expensive but better.
Bare engine on eBay £600. Full FI engine and all ancillaries £1200. If I were starting from scratch I'd have the 2002 FI engine.
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 31/12/06 at 12:15 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Lovelock
Well I hoped I might spike a little interest with my bike verses car engine thoughts but I hardly expected to labelled as talking utter rubbish and
‘shite’.
Zxrlocost does a good job making a few extra quid selling car builders bike engines and good luck to him. However I have no wish to look up primary
reduction when the same man tells me that 122mph is ‘plenty enough’. Spend £3000 on an R1 (as in complete bike) and go do 170mph then write that 122
cuts the mustard. 3.9 to 60 sounds great until you realise that the same £3000 R1 will do it in two thirds of the time.
The video was great though, the car looked very rapid. But I note that it was overtaken by a car with just one person in. Also, it didn’t have
indicators let alone a windscreen so it is hardly the sort of thing that one could hack around the A23 / M23 on the way to work is it.
And why would anybody spend £3000 on a ZX14 engine when a Duratec with an induction kit etc could be bought and installed to provide well over 200
BHP, torque and a reverse for the same money, one could ask Caterham for a second opinion.
Smart51 seems like a nice chap too but tells us that he would never buy a bike, let alone a big bike, in other words I could easily be persuaded that
he’s either old, under the thumb or a little bit of a chicken.
£800 for a bike engine putting out 120 – 150 BHP is good value but the same will get a car engine with the same power, a reverse gear and the ability
to get you to Nuremberg and back in some degree of style.
I agree with CaLviNx, try both and not just on a track or a Sunday blast but on the way to work on a typical English day, ie hot, cold, dry, windy and
wet then make up your own mind. Me, I’m biased; buy a bike and build a car and have both worlds for the price of a second hand Ford Focus.
No sign of a patronising tone there then 
I can't see anybody claiming that a BEC will match the bike's performance, but then neither will a Seven with a car engine in it, so what
exactly is your point here?
Put a 150bhp Zetec engine'd Seven against a BEC with an R1 of the same power and the Zetec won't see which way the BEC went. The very same
reason a bike is quick also translates to 4 wheels, namely low weight (you save 80-100kgs on an equivalent car engine setup), high revs and sequential
box. A 150bhp car engine'd Seven will struggle to hit 60mph in under 5s and 100mph in less than 12s, yet the BEC will do it in under 4s /
10s.
You also keep rambling on about torque but all it proves is that you obviously don't really understand how torque or horsepower translates to
performance. If you want to stay ignorant of the facts and aren't prepared to try and understand when people mention valid points like primary
reduction ratios then fine, but if that's the case I suggest not entering into topics such as this that you clearly know very little about,
because your mis-information will be continuously corrected 
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greggors84
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| posted on 31/12/06 at 02:07 AM |
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I love the way the BEC and CEC questions always turn personal!
Its all down to a personal choice, some people will be happy commuting everyday in a BEC, somepeople will only be happy with something that doesnt
have to be thrashed to go fast.
People are always going to defend their corner and say their choice was the best. "I went for a bike engine, but stupidly made the wrong
decision and now look really silly pushing it about in the pub car park" They're just arnt going to admit it are they!
Money out of the equation it would be interesting how a R500/CSR260 would fair against a busa/zx14 engined car. The caterhams weight in at 500kg so
not far off the BECs, wonder how the extra power torque would do against the better cornering.
Chris
The Magnificent 7!
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zetec
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| posted on 31/12/06 at 09:57 AM |
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Top Trumps time again...I found out on my first track day that out and out speed is good but good brakes and cornering are just as important. Get a
feel for both, you might be able to make up your own mind . I've driven both and I would say the CEC is a lot easier to drive in every way.
" I only registered to look at the pictures, now I'm stuck with this username for the rest of my life!"
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 31/12/06 at 12:16 PM |
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Totally agree, Ive got an R1 BEC but I wouldnt necessarily recommend one to everyone and I think if I was in bodger's position I probably would
err on the side of a good CEC install on this occasion due to the type of driving he'll be doing, but its hardly suprising when half / untruths
are purported as fact by people that really don't know what they are talking about, it tends to gets other's backs up and ends up like
that.
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 31/12/06 at 01:12 PM |
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I think bodgers already decided
chris ta for backing up my info thought I was talking tatt must be other people
greggors you have a good point about top spec cars comparing
but least not forget I could build a nice 7 using a 12r/busa/14r with a good spec for about 7-9k if I was careful
how much are r500''s
[Edited on 31/12/06 by zxrlocost]
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stevebubs
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| posted on 31/12/06 at 03:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Put a 150bhp Zetec engine'd Seven against a BEC with an R1 of the same power and the Zetec won't see which way the BEC went.
On a track - probably. However, my zetec Fury wasn't having any trouble keeping up with the BECs on the 2006 Le Mans trip.
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 31/12/06 at 03:28 PM |
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they werent trying
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clutch_kick
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| posted on 31/12/06 at 04:37 PM |
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Just one small note here ... Why on earth would you want a Seven for everyday use??? Are some kind of S&M chap?
I live in a country that has some of the crappiest roads in europe, the average gear on our 'motorways' is 3rd gear, there seems to be a
traffic jam every other corner, and now our local authorities are becoming speed-camera-happy.
Still, who cares!!! We are blessed with one of the best Drag Strips in the south of Europe, a modest but
very fun and friendly Hill Climb Championship, and good weather with great
seafront roads, all year round. So BEC here I come
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 31/12/06 at 06:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stevebubs
On a track - probably. However, my zetec Fury wasn't having any trouble keeping up with the BECs on the 2006 Le Mans trip.
Hi Steve
Yep its more apparent on track I guess, as an example I was able to keep up with a ~170bhp Westie race series Zetec car around Cadwell for about 5
laps (with the race driver practicing for an upcoming race - not his Gran driving ) whilst I still had my 130bhp blade, over a lap maybe he was a
gnats tadger quicker on the straights and a smidge slower in the corners, but if Id had the R1 installed at the time Im sure I would have had the
measure of him, let alone with a busa that would have given me equal power.
As for straight line performance, knowing those that went with you Im sure they weren't hanging about so I'll dispell that one, but I
think you'll agree that you need a fairly big power advantage to just drive away from someone under power, even Baz's turbo Busa
doesn't look that much quicker than mine when Ive followed him, especially at road legal speeds, but the seat-of-the-pants (and almost certainly
the stopwatch) would show that its significantly quicker in every way.
Have a good new year BTW
[Edited on 31/12/06 by ChrisGamlin]
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bodger
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| posted on 1/1/07 at 08:49 PM |
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Guys, thanks for all the replies. I think I'm going the R1 route.
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Hellfire
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| posted on 1/1/07 at 09:08 PM |
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Wise choice
Phil
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Pezza
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| posted on 1/1/07 at 09:16 PM |
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\o/ fine choice dude
You couldn't pwn your way out of a wet paper bag, with "PWN ME!!" written on it, from the "pwned take-away" which originally contained one
portion of chicken tikka pwnsala and the obligatory free pwnpadom.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 2/1/07 at 09:50 AM |
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Interesting debate, but why state "zetec" as the car engine choice?
With specific reference to the title, i would probably elect for the R1, but I went through this same debate when I specced my 7.
I just sat down with the calculator and lots of weights of typical cars and engines etc, to work out power to weight ratios.
From that I can see that to hit approx 350hp tonne I needed either a 205hp Vauxhall XE engine OR a 185hp Hayabusa engine, either gave identical power
to weight ratio.
The clincher was then price vs convenience. I already had lots of vauxhall bits and knew them well, the installation would have reverse gear and most
of all, I didn't have to pay the inflated £2500 - £3000 required to buy the busa engine, the vauxhall cost me £250..........................
horses for courses, but don't criticise car engines if you have only been in std ish pinto engine cars, a proper car engine (sorry to those with
decent tuned pintos as these are a bit different! ) is a different kettle of fish!!!!!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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bodger
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| posted on 6/1/07 at 12:10 PM |
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I said zetec cos I've got a new one sat in the garage. Bought it for a reasonable price without really doing my homework (I know fool & his
money blah blah ).
Didn't realise the work involved in getting it up & running (1.8 flywheel, rwd bits, figure out megasquirt, bike carbs, change water pump,
modify sump, etc etc). I'm sure it would be enjoyable in a drawn out masochistic head scratching kind of way but would it be really worth it at
the end of the day compared to dropping in an R1?
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akumabito
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| posted on 6/1/07 at 01:21 PM |
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How come the S2000 engine is never used? Rev happy, good power, not too heavy/big... I guess it turns the "wrong" way, but wouldn't
that be solved by using the S2000 rear diff?
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esn163
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| posted on 6/1/07 at 01:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by akumabito
How come the S2000 engine is never used? Rev happy, good power, not too heavy/big... I guess it turns the "wrong" way, but wouldn't
that be solved by using the S2000 rear diff?
Chis Mason used a S2000 in his last Indy here - very nice car
Ed
[Edited on 6/1/07 by esn163]
Indy Build Photos
** Build pages **
Photo Bucket Pics
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procomp
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| posted on 6/1/07 at 07:46 PM |
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Hi after just reading all that i would just like to confirm that a cec with a 160bhp zetec can easily acive a 0-60 in less than 3 secs and do the 0-64
ft for sprinting with 200 bhp in 1.9 secs.
At the end of the day it all comes down to wether you fancy a bec or a cec as there is no definitive proof of either being substatially better than
the other it's just a personal choise.
cheers matt
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DIY Si
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| posted on 6/1/07 at 08:08 PM |
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quote:
a cec with a 160bhp zetec can easily acive a 0-60 in less than 3 secs
That must be some very special car then! I'd thought it'd do something in the region of 5. As ever, quite glad to be proved wrong though!
Or does it have a silly FD?
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 6/1/07 at 08:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
i would just like to confirm that a cec with a 160bhp zetec can easily acive a 0-60 in less than 3 secs
cheers matt
I really struggle with that one I'm afraid, I doubt a 160bhp lighter BEC could do it too, unless of course we are talking non road legal rubber
etc........
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procomp
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| posted on 6/1/07 at 08:17 PM |
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Hi no it was just a standard LA gold sva'd and used for sprinting in the welsh sprint championship road going class by gordon hick who won his
class and i think overhaul one year.
cheers matt
Ps car weighed 510kg
[Edited on 6/1/07 by procomp]
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