NEW GUY
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| posted on 11/1/11 at 05:51 PM |
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Slipper clutch
Hi - firstly I'm new here...
Does any one have any knowledge of locking up slipper clutches so they do not work, REF R1
I can completely see how they work - Just did not know if anyone has done it on here before might have a better method than the potential hazardous
method I'm looking at.
- was looking at putting an earlier clutch in but is overly complicated / costly
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bitsilly
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| posted on 11/1/11 at 06:01 PM |
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Are you talking late 5vy?
If so I have a spare complete clutch assembly, and I was interested in trying a slipper one.
Happy to swop if you want.
My clutch is from a 5VY, which R1 do you have?
Can anyone confirm they are swoppable?
Ed
ps. just noticed you think it may be over complicated? I had thought they were easily interchangable?
But I was once wrong before in 1987.
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bitsilly
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| posted on 11/1/11 at 06:06 PM |
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Have sent you a U2U in case you want to contact me.
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NEW GUY
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| posted on 11/1/11 at 06:44 PM |
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"U2U" can see it's in there? - I'm new so not sure what to do with that?
I have the manuals out and even across the 04 - 06 range there are difference's across the versions
The v model has an additional thrust washer - obviously the 06 le slipper is different unit completey. I have seen 04 - 05 cluthces advertised
separately to 06 so is a bit confusing ?
I have the 07 - 08 unit.. I know they are desirable to bike racers (which would suggest they go into the 04-06 motor) & after market slippers are
so pricey - I also recall 07-08's clutches are supposed to have better oil flow characteristics than earlier clutch units...
Was mentioned input 07/08 shaft might be longer and or the clutch overall size is different? Hence the reason for a different deeper clutch
cover?
I'm under the impression the 04-08 shaft size splines are the same so something could be done with an earlier unit...
All of which could be rubbish? I'm fairly sure some one said the 06 clutch cover wont go on so makes me think?
All off which I can not confirm with out the bits in front of me (ideal situation)
because of this uncertainty.. I'd rather lock up this 07/08 unit unless - I can get the earlier bits to see exactly what's involved, it
might mean - maybe have to rob bits to make a combination? Suspect it's possible..
Not sure why you'd prefer one unless it's to sell on?
[Edited on 11/1/11 by NEW GUY]
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mark chandler
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| posted on 11/1/11 at 07:17 PM |
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Slipper clutch works on the over run, so would protect engine against a spin surely?
If the clutch does not slip when pushing why not leave alone?
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adithorp
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| posted on 11/1/11 at 07:28 PM |
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I've been told the 07-08 slipper is interchangable with the 06 by someone with lots of race bike knowledge. Can't swear to it though.
I'd check with Malc.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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bitsilly
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| posted on 11/1/11 at 08:10 PM |
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Not sure why you'd prefer one unless it's to sell on?
[Edited on 11/1/11 by NEW GUY]
Then you do not know me very well.
But welcome to the forums, I hope we can help you.
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NEW GUY
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| posted on 11/1/11 at 09:10 PM |
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sorry bit silly was not an assumption :-)
I just know a car race series that lock all slipper clutches up since they were blamed for a crash ref *
I bet Radical do it too? etc..
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Perhaps it is a good idea to use it for road use? perhaps if you shift down to early?
The slipper clutch was designed to prevent the rear wheel locking up on a bike / chain chattering etc - as a bike brakes the rear wheel skips across
the tarmac as the front end dips, meaning very little effort via compression from the engine is required to cause it to lock up the rear wheel - with
a slipper clutch the rear wheel becomes disconnected from the engine and can free wheel - thus not locking the rear wheel.
The side effect is it will stop the motor over revving...
with out a slipper, with two big rear wheels on a car the wheels will not lock from the force of the engine - and can over rev the engine if shifting
down to soon...
BUT - I bet none of you guys with earlier motors have had no problems with out one (I never have)
If your on the brakes the motor wont over rev until you shift down into an inappropriate gear for the road speed..
So it's more simple not to run a slipper - less chance of burning a clutch out over a weekend too I guess -
*In racing it's better to feel more connected - in a car the extra forces mean - a slipper can produce an in neutral feel, effectively trying
to prevent the engine locking the now non existent bike wheel - it dis en-gauges the clutch - not funny at mach 3 before your about to turn in.
I've already this feeling in a car for a different reason...false neutral but changing up 5 to 6th before feathering the throttle for turning in
" brown pants" along for the ride would be the best description.
Have pondered this...
You could argue when it works - it's only doing this because the engine & clutch is receiving the same level of force as it's designed
"thus doing it's job" which is ok - if that's what it does - as it only comes in when the engine is excessively loaded (no
one wants to over rev an engine)...but remember it's actually designed to not lock up a hovering bike rear wheel - which I presume means it
actually comes into play much sooner, as it takes no effort to lock a tyre that's barely touching the ground. - so if it comes in early i.e.
when you back off the throttle (with out down shifting) because a car is heavier - big no no on a race track.
That a side I do not want or need a clutch slipping at all...
Text
[Edited on 11/1/11 by NEW GUY]
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bitsilly
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| posted on 12/1/11 at 09:17 AM |
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I had suggested to a friend that we run a slipper for a while just to stop buzzing the engine.
But you are right, I have never actually blown a bike engine up as a result of buzzing.
My mate wasn't convinced either!
I just like gadgets!
ps It is an ex-RGB race car, but not used on the roads, just the track.
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NEW GUY
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| posted on 12/1/11 at 03:52 PM |
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Slipper - might work ok on the road or track days - Just not for what we do.... I never want my car coasting just too risky.
Locking the slipper up Is the informed method, that has been used by others for a least a couple years with out problem and as said...
I've run a blade bike engine in a low cost on a track day without a slipper and also a different car with earlier R1 motor + Barnett clutch
conversion... Never had a problem (but I do not over rev on down shifts)
(selecting a lower gear at the wrong speed is just not clever) nothing to gain.
many people slow down too much for corners anyway - only in racing terms. Then shift down to compensate for what is lost speed - then accelerating
like a demon... but a better driver would just sail past with out slowing down - as much- and the engine should be humming at the right rev's
where the power comes in (yet to perfect this)
With this type of driving in mind the slipper is simply a un-necessary hassle... that may have already caused an accident in racing.. which is what
concerns me - from a similar experience.
Also it make sense that if the slipper is slipping the clutch even if it is just via engine verses rear wheel force - they ware quicker than a
conventional clutch.
each to there own.....
So without the 04-06 clutch in front of me, at best it's an educated guess - so a bit of a gamble to buy one unless someone has actually carried
it out.
I think I might proceed with locking it up, as my clutch cover is also different - seem to recall the 04-06 one does not fit.
Lot's of good bits of info and pictures on here and I do miss the road legal / track day car, there are some nice ones in here - would be nice
to come and have a look at a local meeting. I love to see how things are put together.
p.s. Bit Silly - I like that RGB, looks similar to a bigger version of a global light or maybe a bit like a westfield xtr..have never seen one before.
Only radicals really - bet it's fun to drive.
Has anyone got a diagram / schematic that shows a modified loom to get an 04-06 R1 motor running? I know they have a chipped Key/ immobiliser
(that's been dealt with) - I can work it out from the manual - but something tried and tested would be worth comparing to.
I Do not need lights/clocks or standard fuel pump but does not matter if that has been integrated
[Edited on 12/1/11 by NEW GUY]
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progers
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| posted on 12/1/11 at 04:53 PM |
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I personally do not agree that there is a problem running a slipper clutch in a car.
All a slipper clutch does is reduce the amount of engine braking you get from the motor. It is especially useful when you are braking hard, and go
down the gearbox. If you mismatch the revs you can easily cause the tyres to lock momentarily and this will definitely make the car misbehave! The
slipper clutch will eliminate this problem (its why it is used on the bikes in the first place to improve stability under braking).
The fact that the clutch slips under these back torque conditions will not cause instability in the car, in effect it is like reducing your braking
slightly. This may alter the feel of the car but should not be as detrimental to stability as letting out the clutch and having a big mismatch in
revs.
Maybe I am missing something here, so am willing to hear alternative views.
I will actually testing this myself as I am currently putting a '08 GSXR1000 in my RGB race car. The ZX12 I was running before had no slipper
but the gixxer has. It will be interesting to see how different it feels. The Gixxer slipper clutch is adjustable for the amount of slip it gives, so
if I don't like it I can dial it out 
The feedback I have heard from another racer who has used a 2008 CBR1000 Honda with slipper is that he loved it....
Cheers
Paul
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NEW GUY
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| posted on 12/1/11 at 06:59 PM |
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I've not posted this to debate the facts in my case anyway .... I know in my particular circumstances - it's already been tried and tested
more time's than enough, by drivers who work as professionals out side of this series. Times are consistent enough to see advantages of set up
changes recorded by data logging.
The facts are it disengages / slips the clutch - which means the rear wheels can free wheel.
On a bike that's great .. as a bike banks over if the rear wheel locks up, it's the same as skidding (hand brake style) the rear end will
swing out to quick/too much on a bike = uncontrollable. Which is obviously not good. Hence the slipper clutch is probably saved a few lives in that
sense. I would have one on a bike all day long.
In a RACE car with big rear wheels with sticky racing tyres it's very un-likey you will lock up rear wheels if you are shifting down at the
right rev's. Never ever seen it in racing and I've been around a fair few - b.e.c's with very stiff front suspension... The
lightest of cars is just too heavy travelling at speed, it will just turn the engine over..... which is not problem as long as the motor is in the
right gear or the motor is not cogged down to early. Hence why very few people that can drive properly ever blow up healthy bike motors with standard
clutches - it's really not that much of a problem,that it needs fixing.
If your locking rear car wheels by down shifting with good slicks on in a bike engine car something is wrong... It would most likely kill a gear box
or engine first time. If you do all your braking then shift down to right gear you will never lock a rear wheel with the engine - maybe before
shifting on the brakes, but that can be partly addressed by suspension and bias.
I am really talking about a car that relies on down force (so your actually travelling beyond the normal mechanical grip of the tyres - entering a
corner with the car balanced on the limit on a tight rope gritting your teeth and preying to God it will hold....
If in the event of shifting down if the clutch dis-en gauges it's self - hence feeling like going into neutral - just before turning in it will
definitely upset the handling, the rear end feels loose..fast and vague. It will most likely alter the chassis dynamics too as a resistance at the
wheels changes.
I have already found a neutral in a almost similar situation - it did not spin the car - but felt like the car was running away "coasting"
- at the speed I was going all I could do was hope I did not smash the car. It was at the end of a straight into a very fast right hand corner with
very little run off.. I never want to experience that again. in a straight line no problem - before a corner going fast enough - No thanks
If you have any doubt call Malcolm (Yorkshire engines)- seems to be respected in these subjects? if he's does not agree ask him to call his race
car friends in Northamptonshire on this subject... here what they say.
So on this subject nothing will change my mind.... how it's been described make sense. If you take your car out, come up to a bend as fast as
you dare - dip the clutch before you turn in, hold it in as you turn in now re-en gauge it - al right you say that should only happen in a straight
line (but that's going to happen after you shift down, which should be last thing after braking so when travelling at speed the car will
constantly be closing in on a corner and it should all be last minute stuff)
Now after doing that experimentation, tell me that felt nice.. it's not just the disengaging it's when and how it re-en gauges too.
A certain now F3 car driver wrote a car off and broke bones in a b.e.c with a slipper clutch with this disengage, re-engage problem...
The evidence is not looking good - It all seems to make sense to me.
Like I said it may work fine in certain circumstance but if they were beneficial they would not be locked up by a whole series who's drivers
achieve the most impressive results with b.e.c's - on this basis I can not risk it. Where as I've never had problems before with a stock
clutch.
Like I said each to their own... It's not a right or wrong thing - I must not use a slipper for health reasons that's it.
P.s. I agree that dialling it in for a better feel sounds good - I'd make it function only if you really get it wrong - where as I'm
guessing they are way to sensitive as standard... calibrated for a bike tyre with minimal rubber contact being overcome by engine braking. I bet it
dis-engages with the same level of force as turning a bike rear wheel by hand. I'm guessing the problem has been - the minute you shut the
throttle (even with our down shifting) in a b.e.c the slipper clutch disengages?
Anyway - Good luck with all your ventures - some ones got to be experimental.
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progers
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| posted on 13/1/11 at 11:47 AM |
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I know for a fact that slipper clutches are used in Jedi racing , F1000 (American 1000cc formula cars) and DSR racing (very fast Lemans type racers).
I can fully understand that some drivers have a preference to run with or without them but to suggest it is dangerous or will cause the car to handle
in an dangerous way is scaremongering. I note that you have not done a with and without test yourself (which would add some credibility to your
arguments).
" If you take your car out, come up to a bend as fast as you dare - dip the clutch before you turn in, hold it in as you turn in now re-en gauge
it - al right you say that should only happen in a straight line (but that's going to happen after you shift down, which should be last thing
after braking so when travelling at speed the car will constantly be closing in on a corner and it should all be last minute stuff)"
This is not a valid example - manually re-engaging a clutch mid corner (with all the potential for mismatch revs etc) is much worse than the operation
of a slipper clutch which only re-engages when there is little engine braking and/or you apply throttle so the effect on handling will be neglible -
if the engage/disengage is so bad that it disrupts the handling of a car I would hate to think what it would do to a bike.... Don't forget
slipper clutches are adjustable and I am sure it is possible for someone to either set it up badly and/or have slipper clutch malfunction that could
cause problems. This is much more likely the cause of bad experiences about slipper clutches than the "slipper clutches don't work in
cars" theory.
In a race car you set the car up for maximal braking on both front and rear (slightly biased to front) so any additional back torque from a motor
(bike engined or not) could potentially "chirp" the rear wheels if you are doing on the limit braking. If you are a hero and can manage
heel and toe and exactly match revs you won't have a problem, but for the odd time that you make a mistake, it could potentially help. That and
it affords you the luxury of changing a bit earlier as it will stop the engine from over revving (something I have not done but its a good safety
net).
It may transpire that I prefer a standard clutch setup, or don't feel it adds any value, but I will test it both ways and make my own mind
up!
- Paul
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