raydaffurn
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 03:37 PM |
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Lookign for a new car: BEC or CEC?? Clutch/Throttle problem
Hi not been on here for a while, looking at getting another kit car in the next few months, previously I had a MK Indy with a Fireblade 929 engine in
it with a power commander fitted and it was a great car, the only problem i had is that pulling away, the car was so easy to stall it was
unbeleivable, though once it got going it was great.
Im not sure what the problem is down to if it was the clutch or if it is because the travel of the throttle on the bike is say 1/2 inch amd a car is
usallly 1.5 inch but whatever it was it took a bit of the fun out of owning and driving the car for me.
As said above im looking at gettin another kit car within the next few months and im looking at the options of a BEC or CEC, i loved the bike engine,
the sound the pulling power etc and would love to stick with it but the clutch/throttle thing is a major issue and i dont think that i would ever get
used to it. I imagine that this is common with the BEC's and that it just cant be mine that had this problem, but there must be other people in
my shoes who have maybe done an alteration to the car to get round this?
Failing that what options in the CEC would i have to get close to the perfrmance of the BEC's, looking to spend around the £6-7k mark
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Jubal
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 03:50 PM |
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I still stall mine from time to time when I'm not concentrating but mostly it's smooth and controllable. 919 blade. Don't let
worries about the clutch make the decision for you, try a few and see if they are any better than your old one.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 03:53 PM |
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Assuming your main question is that you want a CEC with the performance of a BEC - id think that a blade with circa 160bhp and 480kg = approx 330bhp /
tonne. Id say a CEC at 580kg or so will need a 190bhp engine to be comparable. Is this a fair assumption assuming careful consideration is given to
gearing etc?
For starters a well tuned Zetec or XE should be able to give as much fun as a BEC and probs be more civilised on a run out.
Im just popping out for popcorn so i can sit back, relax and enjoy the replies
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smart51
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 04:04 PM |
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When I built my BEC I found that I stalled it all the time. I moved the clutch cable joint as close to the clutch pedal pivot point as it would go
and now it is hugely better. The mod means that the biting point of the clutch is spread over more pedal travel. This gives more control over the
clutch so that you don't go from disengaged to stall in a tiny foot movement.
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raydaffurn
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 04:13 PM |
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Two main questions, really, one if there is a mod that can be done to sort it and two what CEC engine would give good performance for a £6-7k
budget.
Cheers smart i see what you mean by that, cant exactly mind where mine was connected, ill see if i can see it from the pictures i took of the car and
see how much it can go. How much did you move it from and what was the difference in the travel? Also could this be done with the accelerator?
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andrew.carwithen
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 04:26 PM |
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AB Performance do a mod which allows greater 'feel' to the clutch. I've fitted one to my 'blade' but cannot tell you if
it works or not as I'm still building.
However, Steve ('worx' ) has fitted one to his blade and says it has greatly improved the clutch pedal action.
Andy.
[Edited on 9/7/07 by andrew.carwithen]
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raydaffurn
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 04:28 PM |
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tin top?
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raydaffurn
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 04:33 PM |
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thinking back i would say that the accelerator was more of the problem, like you said mine too was like a light switch travel on it felt like
10-20mm.
Just trying to figure out if there is a way round it, not wanting to get a BEC try a few things then having to end up selling it
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 04:35 PM |
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tin top is your every day car
adjusting the clutch is your best bet listed above
and I dont care what anyone says unless you have a real special vetec engine or a V8 etc with some good power output you will not get the same
adrenaline rush from the car as you do with a bike engine
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BenB
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 04:39 PM |
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I think it depends on the engine.....
As much as I hate saying anything nice about the ST1100 clutch (as its a right PITA to change plates) it is a very nice, progressive unit.
I've never had a problem with stalling (and my daily drive is a tintop Micra whose clutch I use as an on-off switch so its hardly as if my left
foot is a sensitive bit of kit!!)....
In fact, when I've let other people drive it, they've always found it easy to use. On the other hand, 99% of people who drove my
brother's Blackbird powered car stalled it first time round....
Where abouts are you based??
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BenB
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 04:40 PM |
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PS can't help but feel overly sensitive clutches are sometimes caused by MC/SC mismatches. I got round this by using the standard ST1100 MC
modified to take a bar from the clutch pedal....
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 04:46 PM |
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both my mates have cec's tbh they do nothing for me they just feel like a sprightly version of the original cars the engine came out of
one is a Ford rs170 engine westy
the other is the vauxhall 2.0 engine westy
I took a 2.0 zetec on a test drive and if it was left to that car Id have never got into Kit cars
I then went out with "death wish keith" in Hellfires ZX12r I think when I looked at the speedo we were doing almost 100mph(we got there
pretty quickly too!)round an L bend so that puts the recent MK handling discussion out the window for me.
needless to say I ordered an R1 Indy kit
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worX
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 05:13 PM |
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Hi there Ray,
I was concerned at first with the on-off charecteristics of BEC cars' clutch operations, so I bought the previously mentioned Reverse Action
Clutch Arm from Andy of ABPerformance.
I could of done the modifications suggested above, like moving the pivot point down the clutch pedal (same for the accelerator pedal by the way) like
others did. These are a very valid solution, but I knew I wanted my pedal "feel" right from the start, and that I also didn't want a
multitude of holes drilled in my pedals! So I gave Andy a call - he is a spot on bloke and you always get the part that you asked for and in a very
timely manner!
I can heartily recommend him and the clutch device I am now using - I don't get anything from this recommendation by the way, just a very
satisfied customer!
Cheers,
Steve
here is a pic of it!
 
reverse clutch arm
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smart51
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 05:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by raydaffurn
How much did you move it from and what was the difference in the travel? Also could this be done with the accelerator?
I moved the rose joint so it was almost touching the pivot tube on the clutch pedal. 25mm between centres at a guess.
You can do the same with the accelerator too.
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Hellfire
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 05:35 PM |
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I'd agree with BenB, it really depends on the engine. Having built and driven both a Blade engined Indy and a ZX12R Indy, the ZX12R is so much
easier to drive and clutch feel is similar to a normal car just lighter, whereas the Blade engine needed a delicate control of throttle and clutch.
Phil
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raydaffurn
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 05:38 PM |
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so the upshot is that there is modifications that can be done to overcome the problem. How much easier was it when the changes were made, i.e. moving
the cables further down the accelerator? and is there a similiar device for the accelerator as there is for the clutch? how improved was it after the
device?
Cheers for the help on this!
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worX
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| posted on 9/7/07 at 07:16 PM |
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you don't need a "device" for the accelerator, you just need to be a tiny bit more sensitive but not much at all, it's not
worth worrying about (IMO) and then if you find that it's a problem then that is a case of just lowering the pivot point.
As for how easy is the operation of my clutch now, you can depress it by hand, but funnily enough, the lightness of it has taken nothing away from the
"feel" of it!
I can't recommend it enough to be honest! I have driven 3 or 4 different BECS (not loads and loads, I know!) but I still think mine is a
significant amount better. Obviously I'm not talking about hydraulic clutches like Hellfire's ZX12, as that is quite different really.
cheers,
Steve
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