chetcpo
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| posted on 27/9/08 at 12:59 AM |
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No dry sump needed on a transverse mounted busa mill?
This guy seems to think so. He says since he is using a chaindrive and not mounting it North-South he doesn't need a dry sump. I told him that
regardless of the drive and how it's mounted the different g forces introduced by mounting it in a car chassis will likely cause oiling
problems. He says I'm wrong. I don't think I am, but what do I know I have a Miata (eunos) engine in my Locost.
Actual thread is on the Yankee forum.
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4556
*Edit*- Nevemind, he has since admitted not knowing what lateral Gs are.
[Edited on 27/9/08 by chetcpo]
"Book" based scratch built Miata/Eunos 1.8 powered Locost
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=952
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 27/9/08 at 08:11 AM |
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I wouldn't waste your time typing. I too had a dream of building / owning a quick car when I left school. It didn't take me long to work
out that it couldn't really be done within my £200 budget at that time so I bought a Mk 1 Escort, lots of isopon and a few rattle cans so it all
looked the same colour.
ETA - Just realised - If ooonnnnlyyy I'd had £50 more !!!
[Edited on 27/9/08 by Richard Quinn]
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 27/9/08 at 10:27 AM |
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hahaha - just read the thread on the USA forum!! What a prat!! So he's not going to get any oil surge because he has a chain differential and
some fancy guages!! LOL
Its very clear he simply hasnt got a clue what he's being told!! Why argue with him though hey - let him blow his engine up if he wont have it
because "a guy with a sandrail told him so". Just dont do the same thing yourself - minimum of swinging pickup sump required no matter
what the orientation of the (very expensive) engine.
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nstrug
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| posted on 27/9/08 at 10:40 AM |
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Mounted longitudinally, you get surge under braking and acceleration, mounted transversely, you get surge under corning - no difference.
The engine is designed to cope with surge across the sump (as that is what happens in the bike fitment under braking and acceleration) but not along
the sump, as this would never happen in the bike due to the lean angle.
Nick
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 27/9/08 at 10:47 AM |
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To be fair I ran a blackbird right way round (notorious for blowing up in a seven) with no issues.
Currently fitting a busa into a 7, oil mods will be shortened sump and accusump.
If anyone doubts the effectiveness of accusumps take a look at the Mallory park 6 hour cd, we had a blade engine in at the time which are pretty good
on the oiling side of things but coming out of the pits I had forgot to switch on the accusump, 1st time round Gerrard's in anger oil light came
on (it was set at 20psi so no damage done) flicked the switch oil light straight off never to be seen again during the event.
eta I have been the wrong end of dry sump failures to, same end result, a blown engine is usually the 1st indication.
[Edited on 27/9/08 by Jon Ison]
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Chet
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| posted on 27/9/08 at 04:11 PM |
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The following is just my opinion but the knowledge was gained through experience.
Most cut down oil pans will cause problems due to their shape after cutting.
In the original form the oil pans had a small sump area at the bottom and sloped sides above that area. If you cut off the sump area for clearance you
are left with a V shaped oil pan. The sloped sides make it very easy for the oil to flow away from the pickup under hard acceleration or cornering.
We have found that the billet Koenig oil pans with the swivel pickup are a much better solution. They actually hold more oil than a stock pan due to
their rectangular shape.
I'm generally not in favor of dry sump systems due to their added weight, complexity, and multiple points of potential failure.
Chet
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 27/9/08 at 06:15 PM |
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Its an interesting debate.......
I would agree 100% with the dry sump comments, there not the be all and end all and introduce more potential failure points.
Also agree cut down sumps can be a step back if other things aren't done at the same time to restore some sort of baffling around/above the pick
up.
There is a strong contingent that don't like the swivel pick up their theory been there originally designed for drag racing, accelerate once
swing back, brake once swing forward and there not designed for constant direction change ? Ive not used one myself but have looked at them, I think
if I was spending money a sump pan (Koenig) then I would spend not that much more and go dry sump even after my comments above re dry sumps.
Does the swivel rotate 360* ?
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Chet
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| posted on 27/9/08 at 06:52 PM |
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FYI -
No the swivel on the Koenig oil pan does not rotate 360, but I don't believe it needs to.
The Koenig pan has a full rectangular shape - even more so than the OEM pans (Koenig pans aren't recessed for the exhaust pipes as are the OEM).
The Koenig actually holds more oil than the OEM pan and provides 2 additional inches of ground clearance. There are now a number of knockoff designs
but the Koenig pans are still the best quality. The Koenig pan is 1/4th or less the price of the dry sump system and many lbs lighter!
Please note that the cut down OEM pans will most likely cause problems in a BEC!
Chet
[Edited on 27/9/08 by Chet]
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 27/9/08 at 07:12 PM |
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If it doesn't rotate 360* does it not have the potential to find its self "locked" in the wrong position and unable to swing towards
the oil during cornering ?
FYI my cut down pan hold more oil that the oem pan
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adithorp
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| posted on 27/9/08 at 07:26 PM |
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Correct me if my physics is wrong but...
When a bike corners then it leans, the forces acting on it are the centripital force (often reffered to, wrongly, as centrifugal) and is the reaction
to the force applied by the tyres to corner. This is trying to push outward. Then there's gravity pulling the bike down. The resolution of these
forces allows the bike to lean without falling inward and corner without falling outward.
In other words the force acts downward through the centre of gravity to the contact point of the tyres. The oil is pulled downward in the bike by
these forces. There's forward and rear surge but not a lot of sidways (the rider moves the centre of gravity by hanging off the side).
adrian
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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mr henderson
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| posted on 27/9/08 at 07:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul TigerB6
hahaha - just read the thread on the USA forum!! What a prat!!
And not only for his car doings- he's got a Latin motto in his signature line (plus a translation underneath which rather spoils the effect),
and he hasn't put the verb at the end! What a dork!
John
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chetcpo
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 posted on 27/9/08 at 07:58 PM |
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With regard to the comment about the pickup no turning 360 degrees. I don't think you would want that. Just under 180 would be good since as I
understand it you aren't worried about the g forces effect on the oil in more than that one plane. (front to back mounted NS in a car or side to
side as it's mounted in a bike)
If the pickup is submerged in the oil the oil should have no trouble pulling it to whatever side it is "sloshed" to.
Furthermore there are too many American car building "Chet"s in this discussion. I must recuse myself from this discussion for there can
be only one.
OUT,
The one and only, Chet.
"Book" based scratch built Miata/Eunos 1.8 powered Locost
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=952
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