very sad and completly puzzling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwz0nFFfiJs&feature=related
ditto
and why does anyone need to be shot so many times in the head to be stopped? I doubt even terminator took that many rounds
That video link brings nothing to the debate for me. Far too many assumptions and biased commentaries to be taken seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
That video link brings nothing to the debate for me. Far too many assumptions and biased commentaries to be taken seriously.
I would run if my visa was up and I made a living dealing coke...........
I would run if my visa was up and I made a living dealing coke...........
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
That video link brings nothing to the debate for me. Far too many assumptions and biased commentaries to be taken seriously.
true but simply just look at the footage
everyone is biased, including those who work for the police
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Yes - I agree with your sentiment that everyone is predisposed to look at incidents from different perspectives. The perspective I choose, is to approach it with an open mind!
Obviously a conspiracy theory in the making something the internet seems to be very good at promoting. Some loony with nothing better to do starts em
a few more jump on the bandwagon and next thing its on the 6 oclock news.
Following the other thread I think it was just a poorly led operation carried out by badly trained and misinformed operatives that sadly led to the
death of an innocent man, very sad. the only thing you have to hope is that lessons have been learned, but I doubt it.
Cheers,
Bob
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
That video link brings nothing to the debate for me. Far too many assumptions and biased commentaries to be taken seriously.
true but simply just look at the footage
everyone is biased, including those who work for the police
I looked at the footage... it showed lots of people moving about on a number of poor quality CCTV cameras and was telling me things that were not backed up by fact.
Yes - I agree with your sentiment that everyone is predisposed to look at incidents from different perspectives. The perspective I choose, is to approach it with an open mind!
There is train footage, but unlike a lot of other (less civilized?) countries - we choose not to make a film of someone having their head blown-off
available to all and sundry on the internet!
We know what happened... he was jumped on and shot repeatedly in the head. No-one needs to see it other than those involved in the inquests.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
There is train footage, but unlike a lot of other (less civilized?) countries - we choose not to make a film of someone having their head blown-off available to all and sundry on the internet!
We know what happened... he was jumped on and shot repeatedly in the head. No-one needs to see it other than those involved in the inquests.
Just jumped on and shot AFAIK.
In the end one has to ask what difference any of it makes. The bloke is dead, killed because people thought he was a terrorist about to cause an
explosion.
Is someone trying to make out that that isn't the case?
John
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
In the end one has to ask what difference any of it makes. The bloke is dead, killed because people thought he was a terrorist about to cause an explosion.
Is someone trying to make out that that isn't the case?
John
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
and why does anyone need to be shot so many times in the head to be stopped? I doubt even terminator took that many rounds
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
In the end one has to ask what difference any of it makes. The bloke is dead, killed because people thought he was a terrorist about to cause an explosion.
Is someone trying to make out that that isn't the case?
John
yeah why have anyone in prison? it's not going to change the past...let them all out, whats done is done
Pretty simple really.
If an armed officer is pointing a gun at you then you pay attention to him when he shouts at you to stop moving and co-operate with what he tells you
to do. If you choose not to do that then you deserve to get shot. There have been many cases of people running around with fake weapons being shot (to
disable only) because they havent complied.
In the case of a suspected suicide bomber then if they dont comply with commands what else are you to suspect? The ONLY sure fire way to stop them is
shoot to kill, anything else could lead to them having chance to push the button. If you are innocent and have nothing to hide you would raise your
hands, comply and live.
If you shoot to kill then 6 shots are perfectly justified, I am suprised there werent more fired, in all honesty.
If he had complied with police requests, none of this would have happened.
I feel sorry for the police officers involved who were just doing their job. I am sure none of them went to work that morning thinking they were going
to kill someone. Just think of the effect that it would have on you if you were put in that situation, and its made worse by the fact that it was a
tragic mistake.
All shootings by armed officers are investigated, whether there were injuries or deaths involved, as part of the investigation.
Another attempt by the media to alienate and sensationalise something. Makes a change from the 'recession' though I suppose. The only bit
that needs 'reporting' is the final outcome of the investigation, not all the speculation and supposition that some over paid reporter
dreamt up one night.
David
true the cctv is poor but unless you need to go to spec savers you can see the poor guy doesn't look or act like a suicide bomber .... he calmly
buys a newspaper then quietly walks to catch his train ... no bag or big coat .... why didn't the police stop him in the street why wait until he
got on a train ??
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Pretty simple really.
If an armed officer is pointing a gun at you then you pay attention to him when he shouts at you to stop moving and co-operate with what he tells you to do. If you choose not to do that then you deserve to get shot. There have been many cases of people running around with fake weapons being shot (to disable only) because they havent complied.
In the case of a suspected suicide bomber then if they dont comply with commands what else are you to suspect? The ONLY sure fire way to stop them is shoot to kill, anything else could lead to them having chance to push the button. If you are innocent and have nothing to hide you would raise your hands, comply and live.
If you shoot to kill then 6 shots are perfectly justified, I am suprised there werent more fired, in all honesty.
If he had complied with police requests, none of this would have happened.
I feel sorry for the police officers involved who were just doing their job. I am sure none of them went to work that morning thinking they were going to kill someone. Just think of the effect that it would have on you if you were put in that situation, and its made worse by the fact that it was a tragic mistake.
All shootings by armed officers are investigated, whether there were injuries or deaths involved, as part of the investigation.
Another attempt by the media to alienate and sensationalise something. Makes a change from the 'recession' though I suppose. The only bit that needs 'reporting' is the final outcome of the investigation, not all the speculation and supposition that some over paid reporter dreamt up one night.
David
Ignoring police requests then and failing to comply. Same thing.
If you are stupid enough to ignore an armed officer....
If no warnings were given then its a different matter. But my understanding was that he ignored police requests.
quote:
Originally posted by woodster
true the cctv is poor but unless you need to go to spec savers you can see the poor guy doesn't look or act like a suicide bomber .... he calmly buys a newspaper then quietly walks to catch his train ... no bag or big coat .... why didn't the police stop him in the street why wait until he got on a train ??
quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
Obviously a conspiracy theory in the making something the internet seems to be very good at promoting. Some loony with nothing better to do starts em a few more jump on the bandwagon and next thing its on the 6 oclock news.
Following the other thread I think it was just a poorly led operation carried out by badly trained and misinformed operatives that sadly led to the death of an innocent man, very sad. the only thing you have to hope is that lessons have been learned, but I doubt it.
Cheers,
Bob [/quote
I have to agree with this, big mistake but i dont think any lessons will be learned.
woodster - 3/12/08 at 01:25 PMquote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by woodster
true the cctv is poor but unless you need to go to spec savers you can see the poor guy doesn't look or act like a suicide bomber .... he calmly buys a newspaper then quietly walks to catch his train ... no bag or big coat .... why didn't the police stop him in the street why wait until he got on a train ??
We spoke about the Suicide Bombers Handbook on another thread Woodster... what does a suicide bomber look like, or act like... can you provide a definition, because there ain't one in the Handbook!
so in other words its ok to shoot anyone thats getting on a train .... as the poor guy looked like any other passenger that day .. paper in hand calmly taking his seat
Benzine - 3/12/08 at 01:32 PMThere seems to be a Pascal's Wager type viewpoint from lots of people.
"It's better to believe in god and there not be a god than to not believe in god and there is a god"
"It's better to shoot a person & he turns out not to be a terrorist than to not shoot someone who turns out to be a terrorist"
Pascal's Wager blows goats.
scootz - 3/12/08 at 01:33 PMquote:
Originally posted by woodster
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by woodster
true the cctv is poor but unless you need to go to spec savers you can see the poor guy doesn't look or act like a suicide bomber .... he calmly buys a newspaper then quietly walks to catch his train ... no bag or big coat .... why didn't the police stop him in the street why wait until he got on a train ??
We spoke about the Suicide Bombers Handbook on another thread Woodster... what does a suicide bomber look like, or act like... can you provide a definition, because there ain't one in the Handbook!
so in other words its ok to shoot anyone thats getting on a train .... as the poor guy looked like any other passenger that day .. paper in hand calmly taking his seat
Nope... that's not the point I'm trying to make!
Even suicide bombers can look "like any other passenger" and "paper in hand calmly take a seat". There is no 'universal' suicide bomber demeanor!
Also, I may be wrong (I frequently am), but did he he "paper in hand calmly take a seat"... ??? I thought the poo hit the fan immediately upon him boarding the train?
scootz - 3/12/08 at 01:37 PMWhen did we get an automatic swear-censor on the site... poop
Personal fave is b*llocks to nutsack!
Mr Whippy - 3/12/08 at 01:43 PMquote:
Originally posted by Benzine
There seems to be a Pascal's Wager type viewpoint from lots of people.
"It's better to believe in god and there not be a god than to not believe in god and there is a god"
"It's better to shoot a person & he turns out not to be a terrorist than to not shoot someone who turns out to be a terrorist"
Pascal's Wager blows goats.
that’s the whole point of terrorism, its not the initial death toll since it is truly a hopelessly ineffective way of killing your enemy. Rather it is to breed fear and suspicion so that the enemy turns on itself and it seems to be working very well so far. Quite ironic that ‘we’ are meant to be liberating a country in the name of giving them safety and freedom when the same government is rapidly removing their own people of the same thing.
scootz - 3/12/08 at 01:45 PMquote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Quite ironic that ‘we’ are meant to be liberating a country in the name of giving them safety and freedom when the same government is rapidly removing their own people of the same thing.
Amen... !
Mr Whippy - 3/12/08 at 01:45 PMquote:
Originally posted by scootz
When did we get an automatic swear-censor on the site... poop
Personal fave is b*llocks to nutsack!
never noticed? oh go on give it a go in the name of research
scootz - 3/12/08 at 02:17 PMLol... wee... but (in the name of research) I've found an important loop-hole - stick an exclamation mark at the end of said sweary-word and you have good old PISS!
scootz - 3/12/08 at 02:19 PMThe 'F' word still works though!
scootz - 3/12/08 at 02:20 PMSo does a few more of the 'hard-stuff'.
Gosh, I'm shocked now... think I'll go for a wee (not piss!) lie down
Mr Whippy - 3/12/08 at 02:50 PMClearly P!$$ is actually ruder than F$ck!
never fail to learn stuff on here...
Fozzie - 3/12/08 at 03:11 PMThe automatic censor has been there forever...
nowt to do with me.....and for some reason, it doesn't always work.....
I would be very grateful though if you didn't keep 'testing' it....... I have the migraine of migraines today......
Thank you kindly
Fozzie
mr henderson - 3/12/08 at 03:25 PMThere seem to be two sides this argument, and some common ground
Common ground- That JCdM was killed by policemen who thought that he was a terrorist, and that he was shot dead because they believed that he would otherwise set off a bomb that would kill many people
Side A. That some or all of the police involved carried out criminal acts, and need to be sent to prison, or receive some other suitably severe punishment, for so doing.
Side B. That the police made a hugely regrettable, but understandable, mistake, and that lessons need to be learned from it to reduce the chance of something similar happening in the future.
I’m on Side B
John
BenB - 3/12/08 at 03:30 PMquote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
ditto
and why does anyone need to be shot so many times in the head to be stopped?
After the first shot the subsequent shots really are immaterial. I think it'd be the first one that bothered me most
woodster - 3/12/08 at 03:35 PMquote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
There seem to be two sides this argument, and some common ground
Common ground- That JCdM was killed by policemen who thought that he was a terrorist, and that he was shot dead because they believed that he would otherwise set off a bomb that would kill many people
Side A. That some or all of the police involved carried out criminal acts, and need to be sent to prison, or receive some other suitably severe punishment, for so doing.
Side B. That the police made a hugely regrettable, but understandable, mistake, and that lessons need to be learned from it to reduce the chance of something similar happening in the future.
I’m on Side B
John
it looks like we will agree to disagree
mr henderson - 3/12/08 at 03:38 PMquote:
Originally posted by woodster
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
There seem to be two sides this argument, and some common ground
Common ground- That JCdM was killed by policemen who thought that he was a terrorist, and that he was shot dead because they believed that he would otherwise set off a bomb that would kill many people
Side A. That some or all of the police involved carried out criminal acts, and need to be sent to prison, or receive some other suitably severe punishment, for so doing.
Side B. That the police made a hugely regrettable, but understandable, mistake, and that lessons need to be learned from it to reduce the chance of something similar happening in the future.
I’m on Side B
John
it looks like we will agree to disagree
You disagree with my summation? Or with the side I've chosen?
John
JoelP - 3/12/08 at 06:28 PMI would entirely agree with John, but i would say that side B goes a little further for some, namely that the police acted correctly. Ie it was unlucky for Jean but tough s***, greater good etc.
I wouldnt jail the firearms cops who did the deed, thats ridiculous. Remove whoever was in charge from command, failing to identify him is unacceptable. Why in 35 mins did no one go in for the face to face ID?
The cops at the scene had been led to believe that he had been ID'd positively, which is where it all went wrong.
The video that started this thread is pointless, its revealed as spin with the comment at 1.00.