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OT - electrician qualification
02GF74 - 23/1/09 at 10:01 AM

Dunno what I should be asking about but here goes.

What I know is that some law was instroduced a couple of years back that meant any electrical wiring in yer house had to be done by qualified person - at same time the new twin and earth cable wires were changed so that any house using the new cololurs had to have certificate?

Anyways, what is the qualification needed?

How does on go about getting it and how much would it cost?

All I am looking for is to be able to wire my own house: things like power sockets, lamps, maybe a consumer unit.

I assume that if one had the qualification, then one could wire one's own house.

(I do have 2 reels of the old black/red coloured wires and I beleive there is a healthy trade in this so I could get round it but having the quals. may be useful).

ta.

bilbo - 23/1/09 at 10:05 AM

I could be wrong here, but I thought you could still do the work yourself, provided you got a qualified electrician to check over / certify your work afterwards?

vinny1275 - 23/1/09 at 10:17 AM

You can do it, so long as it's certified by a certified checker - it's the Part P regulations I think.

Though, and this is a completely hypothetical though, how would anyone else know if you had done the work yourself before or after the regulations?

I think the new wiring notice is needed if you have wiring which has the old colour coding *and* the new one...

HTH


Vince

aka Keith - 23/1/09 at 10:19 AM

As far as I understand it yes, Bilbo is correct. We did a bathroom makover and a few other bits and we ended up needing a new conusmer unit.

Had a to get a qual sparky to issue the certificate. In all our sparkey bill cost us about £600, but I cannot remember how much was actual labour versus certifcation.

[Edited on 23/1/09 by aka Keith]

coozer - 23/1/09 at 10:51 AM

Rewired mine myself then got my mate JIS electrician to check and test it all.

Satisfied the building inspector.

JoelP - 23/1/09 at 11:31 AM

you will/might struggle to get a spark to sign off someone elses work - you arent allowed to, technically. The certificate a spark fills in says 'the person responsible for the design, construction, inspection and certification'. Clearly if you sign off someone elses work you are falsely stating you have designed and installed the full lot.

To do domestic electrical work, the cheapest way is to do a domestic installers course (circa £500), buy the necessary test equiptment (again about £500), then register with one of the approved schemes, most commonly the NICEIC (this lot will have your pants off for as much as possible).


The best way for you to proceed OP is to submit a building notice to the local building control stating that you intend to rewire your house. Pay the appropriate fee, which in Leeds is about £100. Then do the work. Then tell the building inspector to come and inspect, test and certify it. You have paid for this inspection in the original fee. Lots of LABCs will deny they have to do this, there is a document on the OPDM website that specifically clarifies that they must certify it at their own expense.

Alternitvely, if you have access to test equiptment, you can fill in certificates yourself and send them in for inspection by the LABC inspector. He may or may not be satisfied with them. Commenting on several existing minor defects will help convince him that you are competent.

dead sierra - 23/1/09 at 01:17 PM

I retrained as an electrician last year with a trade skills place.

The part P of the building regs was introduced so that any electrical work that is done in your house needs be done by a competent person. To be competent you have to be registered with someone like the NICEIC.

I order to do that you need to have your work obsereved by them and have the relavent equipment and qualifications and then pay them some money.

The equipment you need amoungst others is one of those all in one testers which are around £600 and a contiunity tester which all have to have approved and calibrated every year.

The qualifications I got was a VRQ in domestic installation and City & Guilds 2381.

All in your looking £3k to do it.

Technically you could use the red and black stuff and say it was an existing installation (as all new installations are done with brown and blue). But I think this is illegal and you shouldn't do naughty things like that!

l0rd - 23/1/09 at 01:32 PM

Ohh for F**K sake.

Don't tell me that we need to be certified to put even a cable extention nowdays!

Sorry for swearing. I crossed the limits with all the qualification s**t.

JoelP - 23/1/09 at 01:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by l0rd
Ohh for F**K sake.

Don't tell me that we need to be certified to put even a cable extention nowdays!

Sorry for swearing. I crossed the limits with all the qualification s**t.


yes. You maybe dont appreciate how badly wiring can be done by the incompetent!

02GF74 - 23/1/09 at 01:46 PM

I'd be interested to know how many injuries, damage, death etc: was caused by incompetant wiring though.

Where will, it end? Qualtrification to do DIY on your car? Qualificaitons to do DIY round the house? Qualifiactions for cooking?

JoelP - 23/1/09 at 02:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
I'd be interested to know how many injuries, damage, death etc: was caused by incompetant wiring though.

Where will, it end? Qualtrification to do DIY on your car? Qualificaitons to do DIY round the house? Qualifiactions for cooking?


Only details i can find in 5 minutes are 27 fatalities in in 2002, and an estimate of 2800 accidental electrocutions.

02GF74 - 23/1/09 at 02:40 PM

.... and after the law came in force to compare?

whitestu - 23/1/09 at 03:48 PM

I think you can do minor work without having a p cert but not a rewire.

It pisses me off as a qualified electrician [over 20 years ago], but not now in the trade as I've often had to put right crap work done by current 'professionals'.

Stu

JoelP - 23/1/09 at 03:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
.... and after the law came in force to compare?


would take a long time to filter through as there is still a lot of existing bodges out there.

JoelP - 23/1/09 at 03:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by whitestu
I think you can do minor work without having a p cert but not a rewire.

It pisses me off as a qualified electrician [over 20 years ago], but not now in the trade as I've often had to put right crap work done by current 'professionals'.

Stu


I did a kitchen last week for an old dear whose late husband had been an electrician, and i discovered that British Gas had completely bodged the wiring of her boiler (switched and borrowed neutral). The poor chap must've been turning in his grave .

MikeRJ - 23/1/09 at 03:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dead sierra
The part P of the building regs was introduced so that any electrical work that is done in your house needs be done by a competent person. To be competent you have to be registered with someone like the NICEIC.


This says differently, and is what I have always understood i.e. anyone can perform installation work provided it meets Part P requirements and the LABC is informed as Joel has mentioned.

DarrenW - 23/1/09 at 04:02 PM

Am i right in thinking that you are allowed to replace like for like fittings in the house (such as broken sockets, pendant drops etc) and even put a single spur in without the regs but not allowed to do any wiring in a bathroom or kitchen?

Does changing a white plastic socket for a (eg) brushed nickel type fall under the allowed maintenance category?

I put a spur into my kitchen but had a roll of old coloured wire to use up. I was told that some surveyors on limited time might take the front off a kitchen socket to see wiring colour - if new wire is found in old house will then ask to see the cert.

Got my info 3rd hand so may not be 100% correct.

f1ngers - 23/1/09 at 04:07 PM

quote:

yes. You maybe dont appreciate how badly wiring can be done by the incompetent!

Or the supposedly competent!
When we bought our current house (bungalow) the seller recommended a qualified electrician who had installed additional sockets in the kitchen above the worktops.
When we were ripping the house apart for an extension we discovered that the sockets had been connected to the lighting circuit in the loft and the fuse had been 'upgraded' to a 30A one!

omega 24 v6 - 23/1/09 at 04:27 PM

quote:

yes. You maybe dont appreciate how badly wiring can be done by the incompetent!


I do.
But I've also seen how badly certain competent ( allegedly) people have done wiring as well.

Scenario's
A fully qualified electronics engineer is most likely a competent person to do wiring but MAY not have the certificates to prove it.

A competent auto electrician will have a much greater understanding of domestic electrical circuits than a domestic electrician will have of auto electrics . He also will not have the relevant certificates.

If you are competent and you have red/black cable then as long as there are no test certificates for the circuits in your house who will know you've done anything (unless it's an extension with planning etc etc.)

Qualified or not mistakes will be made it's been that way for time immemorial.
I'm not a fan of the "quickkie" qualification route either I see it as a recipie for disaster. I mean how can you learn in a short period what most real apprentice trained sparkies take 4 years to learn??

JoelP - 23/1/09 at 04:47 PM

quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
Scenario's
A fully qualified electronics engineer is most likely a competent person to do wiring but MAY not have the certificates to prove it.

A competent auto electrician will have a much greater understanding of domestic electrical circuits than a domestic electrician will have of auto electrics . He also will not have the relevant certificates.



I do not agree. They may be familiar with circuit design, maybe even current considerations and the regs relevant to installation, but, its not likely they will appreciate Ze, PFC/PSCC or anything to do with testing RCDs. Now whilst PFC/PSCC is unlikely to be an issue, measuring Ze and RCD trip times is important.


Qualified or not mistakes will be made it's been that way for time immemorial.
I'm not a fan of the "quickkie" qualification route either I see it as a recipie for disaster. I mean how can you learn in a short period what most real apprentice trained sparkies take 4 years to learn??


I think its the scale of the mistakes. I made one last week and quickly located it in testing. An amateur is likely to make a serious design error, ie wrong cable size, wrong MCB rating, wrong cable routing etc.

Regarding the short courses, they arent designed to make a lay person professional. They were introduced to enable people who already undertook electrical installation work before Part P came about, to bring them inline with the regs. 3-5 days isnt enough time to teach someone from scratch, but you can fill in the gaps in someones knowledge quite well. Remember you still have an assessment with the competant person scheme before they accept you.

omega 24 v6 - 23/1/09 at 04:57 PM

quote:

An amateur is likely to make a serious design error, ie wrong cable size, wrong MCB rating, wrong cable routing etc.


Of course they are, but that's because they're not competent.
Many people are quite competent they can read the books and take it in .They can understand and apply the rules and regs along with being able to do the selection and erection of the correct equipment. They are competent and have no certificate.
I would only agree on one point and that would be that they do not necessarily have access to the correct test equipment.

ETA for me it's like building a car. We are not all trained in the stress and limitations of or cars structure. We don't have certificates in braking systems or fuel systems etc etc but for the most part many builders are competent people. if we are in doubt we ask, someone responds we understand the response and how to apply it ( or we ask more/wait for more defined answers). and so we can build a car in a competent manner ( although I have seen a few dodgy things, some from manufacturers as well)

[Edited on 23/1/09 by omega 24 v6]

MikeRJ - 23/1/09 at 05:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Now whilst PFC/PSCC is unlikely to be an issue, measuring Ze and RCD trip times is important.


You'd have problems doing that in my house, it still has fuses!

omega 24 v6 - 23/1/09 at 05:06 PM

quote:

You'd have problems doing that in my house, it still has fuses!


Don't worry it's a bit like owning a vintage car it might be woth a fortune one day


Seriously though get it upgraded.

fazerruss - 23/1/09 at 05:09 PM

Im curious, do any of the qualified sparkys currently discussing on this topic know and understand ohms law? ie V=IR(electronics engineers please dont answer). The reason i ask is from experience of dealing with auto electricians and qualified domestic electricians they dont understand it at all which worries me cos its the fudermental laws of electricity .

MikeRJ - 23/1/09 at 05:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
quote:

You'd have problems doing that in my house, it still has fuses!


Don't worry it's a bit like owning a vintage car it might be woth a fortune one day


Seriously though get it upgraded.


I have a decent CU and a big bunch of cable ready to do it as I planned to move the CU to a more convenient location. I severely doubt whoever originally installed the wiring could ever be classed as a competent person however, even though they were "professional" (was given the invoice for a re-wire when I bought the house).

omega 24 v6 - 23/1/09 at 05:20 PM

quote:

Im curious, do any of the qualified sparkys currently discussing on this topic know and understand ohms law? ie V=IR(electronics engineers please dont answer). The reason i ask is from experience of dealing with auto electricians and qualified domestic electricians they dont understand it at all which worries me cos its the fudermental laws of electricity .


Yes i do it was 1st year secondary school physics in my day.
The trouble is that although they still get it many of them don't take it in because they don't need to. You get all the volts, amps, watts etc etc on most units/appliances now so you don't have to work anything out. Look up a chart for the selection and erection of equipment and it tells you what size of cable and how long a run you can have etc etc

ETA Fazeruss does this mean your a competent prson who doe'sn't have a certifcate (like me). No offence meant just wondering which side of the fence you are on (seeing as how I read you post as "electronics engineers ARE competent but MAY not have a certificate)

[Edited on 23/1/09 by omega 24 v6]

fazerruss - 23/1/09 at 05:37 PM

I do wish people wouldnt use acronyms cos i aint a clue what they are saying sometimes!
im staying sat here on the fence, its rather comfy
Like a lot of locosters on here I have qualification in one field but with a bit of enthusiasm and reading can very professionally do most things excluding brain surgery but give it time!

omega 24 v6 - 23/1/09 at 05:56 PM

Edited to add

JoelP - 23/1/09 at 06:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by fazerruss
Im curious, do any of the qualified sparkys currently discussing on this topic know and understand ohms law? ie V=IR(electronics engineers please dont answer). The reason i ask is from experience of dealing with auto electricians and qualified domestic electricians they dont understand it at all which worries me cos its the fudermental laws of electricity .


I saw a spark on another forum suggest that a loose connection gets hot because it draws more current. There are a lot of time served sparks who dont understand the basics, and on the other hand a lot of '5 day wonders' who are lacking in experience.

You do need to know the basic equations. You can save money on cable if you can work out exactly what current you need to supply.

l0rd - 23/1/09 at 06:35 PM

Ok, I have a BEng(hons) in Electrical and Electronic Engineering. This means, i am competent of designing an Electrical circuit of any kind as i am aware of the principles.
This qualification though, doesn't make me a competent electrician.

Does this mean that the electrician is a lot more qualified than me that did my degree at Uni and he did his at a college?

F**K sake and again F**k sake.

I am delivering ICT courses at a college, and lately, they asked me to start delivering a new qualification to learners which is

"HOW TO MOVE THE MOUSE ON A COMPUTER"

"F**K, i cannot do that, i do not have this qualification. I need training.

B******S

02GF74 - 26/1/09 at 09:37 AM

quote:
Originally posted by l0rd

I am delivering ICT courses at a college, and lately, they asked me to start delivering a new qualification to learners which is

"HOW TO MOVE THE MOUSE ON A COMPUTER"

"F**K, i cannot do that, i do not have this qualification. I need training.



it is really easy. hold the mouse still and move the mat underneath it, 's was I do.

typing is the same, move the keyboard until the key you want is under you finger then kick your legs up - if the table is light enough, you press the right key. it hurst after a while though so I wear knee pads.