I've been involved with many different makes over the years, and my opinion is that yes, they do!

Probably the worst area is that of instructions. These are usually brief, vague and quite often downright wrong. Changes are made to specifications but the instructions are quite often not updated. Far too little attention is paid to the ORDER in which the assembly should be undertaken, leading to awkward jobs later which would have been so much easier earlier.

Fit and finish of the component parts is often less than it could be, too much fettling is required.

I'd be interested to know what others think about this.

You get what you pay for.

Pay £2k for a kit and you expect to do some work. Pay £15k for a caterham and you dont.

If all kits came with comprehensive instructions then they would all end up looking the same, and where's the fun in that?

Just IMO.

The MK instructions are so poor I've hardly looked at them. When I have needed them the info I need isn't there.

I agree that we don't want all of the cars to look the same but surely the suspension, steering, brakes and panels should only go on one way.

As flak said ..... you want the step by step instructions then kit building may not be for you.

The joy is to figure out "oh hell I should have fitted the brake pipes before the Diff os the diff comes out for the n th time...."

The SVA manual (IVA) should be your build manual not 3 sheets of paper from chassis supplier x. If the manual detailed where to put every screw and how to fit every part we would all be driving the equivilent of MFI (ikea) furniture. (ie. flat pack)

[Edited on 30/303/09 by mad4x4]

To be honest, I sit well and truly on the fence with this one but I just thought I would put another side over.
Most of the guys I have experience of within the kit industry are very good engineers/fabricators but this does not mean that they can write about it! The only option would be to get someone in to prepare some form of guide but that would cost and of course, as the customer, we would expect this FOC. The same could be said for the fit and finish of the components. Stopping and correcting is time, effort and money that generates no return. They could hardly justify a price increase for "New - Wishbone set that actually fits first time".
There are examples out there where it is more of a car-in-a-box with no fettling required and a comprehensive manual but you would have to be willing to pay the price. In fundamental terms, a Caterham, a Westfield and an MK Indy are pretty much the same thing aren't they?

I think I agree with all sides. There's is too much distance between budget kit manufacturers and the Westfield/Caterhams of this world in the area of build manuals.

I think the reason is generally it's because of the characters involved. Love engineering, don't enjoy sales/customer service, and have no aptitude or interest in writing a manual.

I'd agree with Mr Henderson that there should at a minimum be some good idea of the order of assembly, and it should be expected to be correct. Even if it's not a great work with lots of detailed diagrams/engineering drawings it shouldn't get people into trouble by saying things that are plain wrong.

Caterham are pretty damn decent with their build instructions.

Now, Ultima... well, I can only talk about their instruction manual circa 1999 as that relates to the Spyder kit I have, but it is dreadful. Starts off pretty well, then you can tell that the author has got bored at the halfway stage as the detail becomes less and less... and less! They'd have been as well just printing in big font - "and then you finish the car off - THE END!"

interesting thread,
but as i,m only part way into the build of my chassis i cannot give an opinion on how the instructions from various kit producers compare, though i feel the instruction manual that i have is very detailed & lots of back up is available............
i,m building the Haynes Roadster, so the book & the forum is very informative, & to have the author / creator of the design on hand makes me feel confident for building my first kit, in fact when doing my research into wanting to build a kit it was the book & forum that clinched it for me.
even tho the book is very clear it still gives room for an individual build.

andy

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Quinn
Most of the guys I have experience of within the kit industry are very good engineers/fabricators but this does not mean that they can write about it! The only option would be to get someone in to prepare some form of guide but that would cost and of course, as the customer, we would expect this FOC. The same could be said for the fit and finish of the components. Stopping and correcting is time, effort and money that generates no return.

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making grp etc fit perfectly will always be a job for the owner, however I would expect wishbones to fit strraight on and give the correct geometry, Id expect the order of woks in te manual atleast to be correct etc

For me, as an engineer the build brochure was really only there as a guide to what to do first, next , last etc.

I referenced the SVA manual more to try and build an SVA friendly first time passer..

When I had problems with the build the manufacturer was there on the phone and sorted everything out with no hassle what so ever. That's why I would recommend them and their kit.

There is also this fabulous resource and numorous other forums to get the info you need.

I don't think its fair to have a poke at suppliers as the quality of the cars has improved a great deal since SVA, and the build manuals, while not fully comprehensive have to deal with customer variations and demands, but still provide some very useful information.

Just MHO mind you..

Steve

quote:

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Originally posted by mr henderson
Fit and finish of the component parts is often less than it could be, too much fettling is required.

I'd be interested to know what others think about this.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by handyandy
interesting thread,
but as i,m only part way into the build of my chassis i cannot give an opinion on how the instructions from various kit producers compare, though i feel the instruction manual that i have is very detailed & lots of back up is available............
i,m building the Haynes Roadster, so the book & the forum is very informative, & to have the author / creator of the design on hand makes me feel confident for building my first kit, in fact when doing my research into wanting to build a kit it was the book & forum that clinched it for me.
even tho the book is very clear it still gives room for an individual build.

andy

---

I'm not building the Haynes book, but have read it. I made the stupid mistake of building a locost from scratch with sod all experience behind me. Its been a long struggle - but Chris's book is very helpful & i wish it had been released years ago. Heck, i might even have been on the road by now.

Many years ago I went to a car show where Westfield were selling old build manuals, presumably to seduce prospective customers to the dark side... mine proved very useful during my Locost build!

I don't really think MK asked too much.

Granted, I've barely even looked at the manual, and the guide for my VDO instruments is 4 times thicker.

But really, how difficult is it? engine in the front, wheels in the corners.

Course, this is why I bought a kit, enough to get me started with very little pissing about.

I think some of the responses here are from people with enough skill and determination to overcome small matters like not knowing how to fix piece A to piece B, but there's a lot of people out there who find this stuff a lot more difficult.

As a person who has had to write instruction manuals inthe past I know how time-consuming and difficult it can be, and it's no wonder that many kit manufacturers are so happy to shrug off that responsibility.

I think another reason why they are reluctant to put in writing how to fit a certain part in relation to another part is that they know damn well the parts aren't going to fit properly anyway

John

Well, I built my car from the original Ron Champion book - and we all know how accurate and helpful that is!

(about as much use as a chocolate fireguard in quite a few places)

...but it did get built (eventually)

[Edited on 30/3/09 by David Jenkins]

Richard Quinn said it for me:

Only having experience with my so-called kit, and a few mechanics: They are "doers", not "talkers" or "writers".

If you are going after only mechanical geniuses, your market for sales is going to be quite small. So if I were a kit manufacturer, I'd get off my welder and hire a manual writer. Look at Factory Five as an example. Do people complain the car is too easy to build? Most of us don't want to be Henry Ford.

I don't like all the learning as I go (eight years of university was for that), I want a car put together. I know, I'm weird. I suspect I am not alone however.

i followed the instructions a bit with the first one, and i learnt easier ways of doing it for the second one... to be honest its easier without them...
its kinda part of the game though methinks...

Yes, but it leaves a lot of pissed off people who quit - probably the MAJORITY of Locost builders. That isn't good for anybody except the guy who gets the deal on the part built.

There is a Tiger agent in the NW who sells very comprehensive photographic build on CD.
Many on here will vouch for its quality/usefullness.
Is it not possible ( and I think its been suggested before) to have on here an "X" build and then users could update and change/add to as they see fit.
Mike

This is how I figure it;

If you want to assemble a car, buy a caterham. You'll get something pretty nice, and fairly similar to every other caterham out there.

The reason locost kits, and scratch built locosts are cheap is because you actually end up thinking, learning, and making a great deal of stuff yourself.



I also suspect a fair number of people who do sell their unfinished kits do so because of SWMBO.

I bet a good percentage of those who give up on their project and sell it for whatever reason start a new one within 5 years too.

quote:

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Originally posted by MikeLR

Is it not possible ( and I think its been suggested before) to have on here an "X" build and then users could update and change/add to as they see fit.
Mike

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quote:

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Originally posted by MikeLR
Is it not possible ( and I think its been suggested before) to have on here an "X" build and then users could update and change/add to as they see fit.
Mike

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The Dax Rush guide looks pretty damn good to me, but then I haven't tried to build a car with it, and their kit costs more than the equivalent MK (IIRC).

quote:

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Originally posted by mr henderson
I've been involved with many different makes over the years, and my opinion is that yes, they do!

Probably the worst area is that of instructions. These are usually brief, vague and quite often downright wrong. Changes are made to specifications but the instructions are quite often not updated. Far too little attention is paid to the ORDER in which the assembly should be undertaken, leading to awkward jobs later which would have been so much easier earlier.

Fit and finish of the component parts is often less than it could be, too much fettling is required.

I'd be interested to know what others think about this.

---

I must have missunderstood this website, i have always thought locostbuilders was the actual build guide.

You ask a question regarding your problem and you get an answer, or even a list of options to choose from.

quote:

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Originally posted by bob
I must have missunderstood this website, i have always thought locostbuilders was the actual build guide.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr henderson

quote:

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Originally posted by bob
I must have missunderstood this website, i have always thought locostbuilders was the actual build guide.

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I think most, if not all the guys and gals here are OK, and don't need too much in the way of instructions. Suggestions and advice from other forum members, yes.

But is it only LCB readers that buy kits?

John

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quote:

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Originally posted by idl1975
The Dax Rush guide looks pretty damn good to me, but then I haven't tried to build a car with it, and their kit costs more than the equivalent MK (IIRC).

quote:

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Originally posted by mr henderson
I've been involved with many different makes over the years, and my opinion is that yes, they do!

Probably the worst area is that of instructions. These are usually brief, vague and quite often downright wrong. Changes are made to specifications but the instructions are quite often not updated. Far too little attention is paid to the ORDER in which the assembly should be undertaken, leading to awkward jobs later which would have been so much easier earlier.

Fit and finish of the component parts is often less than it could be, too much fettling is required.

I'd be interested to know what others think about this.

---

---

Personally I don't think that the lack of a comprehensive instruction/build manual would deter anyone who has/had considered building a kit car of their own.

What I would say makes people sell up part way through, is the cold reality that they've underestimated the length of time required to actually build it and the amount of self motivation and dedication required to see it through til completion.

I don't know of anyone who's chucked the towel in part way through building a kit car because they haven't got a comprehensive instruction/build manual and can't proceed any further.

I think a lot of appeal to building a kit car is to own a vehicle that is unique and individual. Something that the owner has put some thought into and not just built by following a rigid set of instructions.

That's just my take on it though. No doubt some people will have built Caterhams (I use the word built loosely in this context ) because they have a more concise manual but no, I don't think manufacturers ask too much of their customers. Probably the opposite.

Phil

One thing that does seem to come up quite often on here is things like how to make wishbones fit properly, and how to get an MK Indy to self centre. If you are thinking of building a car, then some instructions on how to make these things work can come in handy. Not everyone with the ambition to build a car knows how to start off, or what order these things should be done in. Ok, some things will always be up to the builder, such as the fit and finish of the fibre glass parts, but equally things like the wishbones should fit correctly all the time.
I can see how people get hacked off with things not fitting. Many will underestimate just how long it can take to build a car, after all, it's just an engine in the front, box in the middle, wheel at each corner right? How hard can it be? It's probably the combination of excess time and all the little things that can and often do go wrong/don't quite fit/require a special tool and so on that make people give up. That or underestimating the total cost, and running out of funds.

[Edited on 30/3/09 by DIY Si]

How many people on here would build / have built their own house? Surely it can't be that difficult, it's only stacking bricks on top of each other and leaving the appropriate gaps so you can get in and out and there generally isn't an instruction manual. You can even get those timber frame kits that probably come with a manual but that's the easy bit really. The plumbing, wiring, skirting, door frames etc are the challenge and sort of the equivalent of the labour intensive, expensive fiddly bits on a kit car that can kill a build.