looked like a police hoodie to me
[Edited on 8/4/09 by Mr Whippy]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7989027.stm
So a middle aged newspaper seller, walking home with his hands in his pockets, with nothing to do with the protests, is shoved to the ground by a
policeman.
Minutes later he dies of a heart attack.
Whilst I accept that the police have a difficult job to do, there is no need for that.
Protect and serve? or Bully and intimidate?
Mike
From personal experience, the wrong types are attracted to joining the police
volunteer to go to your local police training excercise, and after experiencing having bricks, molotov cocktails, bottles of Urine, Excrement, verbal
and physical abuse, threats to your family, and friends.
THEN decide which of the people in front of you, if you let them get behind you, is not gonna come up and attack you from behind.
You can't, you have to control a crowd INfront of YOU and you have to make them compliant.
By no means am i saying it was well handled, but similarly there was no intention to kill.
yes there are some bad elements in any job. But the situation there is is extremely difficult, that topped with the fact we haven't seen the
full story yet. then judgements can be made.
Are we living in a police state yet?
No, we are not.
Hope that helps
John
[Edited on 8/4/09 by mr henderson]
There is no justification for what happened on the video, one man against about 10 cops and police dogs does not make it a crowd control issue
[Edited on 8/4/09 by Mr Whippy]
The reporting is currently sensationalising to sell papers and attract viewers, the facts will out in time, tragic I agree, but as has been said was there any intent?
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
There is no justification for what happened on the video, one man against about 10 cops and police dogs does not make at a crowd control issue
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
There is no justification for what happened on the video, one man against about 10 cops and police dogs does not make at a crowd control issue
Agreed, but there is a huge difference between one policeman making a bad mistake (for whatever reason) and a police state.
OK. I admit that my post was unfair. Perhaps not a police state, but more like one lad got out of order. We have no way of knowing what happened in
the moments before that incident.
But, are we, the public, allowed to expect a higher standard of behaviour from the police than the rioters?
Mike
looked like a police hoodie to me
[Edited on 8/4/09 by Mr Whippy]
quote:
expect a higher standard of behaviour from the police than the rioters
there are bad eggs everywhere, whetehr wearing uniform or not.
whether the push contributed in any way to causing the heart attack is too early to say.
and to say we are in a police state because of one incident, that is jumped on by the media, is like saying
all 11 yr olds are murderers
Newspaper would not sell if PC Jones stopped the traffic so granny Smith could cross the B4178 on the way to ASDA was the headline.
This guy (at least) didn't get 7 slugs through his head, but it appears the consequencies of the police interaction may have been similar.
Don't know if the thought police are outside right now, or if one of Stallin's employees is reading this email, or tracking my websites, but
I'm often in need of 're-education'.
I hear helicopters, what colour ball have I produced, they're here now, must go....
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
PC Jones stopped the traffic so granny Smith could cross the B4178 on the way to ASDA was the headline.
that looked proper unnessesary didnt it,
To the police he did kinda look like he was shuffling along slowly to try and let them get by or to wee them off, to them that might have seemed
rather threatening...? and also they were under a lot of pressure that day but still thats no excuse for that savage push...
I think if I'd seen a rather large protest in the street on my way home, then I would have gone another way, and avoided it completely.
I'm not defending the police in the slightest, but he should have chosen another route.
I base the above on comments made in this post, like most, I didn't see the actual event.
Maybe not quite yet but the population is sleepwalking straight into it and few seem to care....
The UK is Officially the second worst human rights offender in the world! second only to China!
Now thats a proud boast!!
There is usually a lot hidden in these media sensationalist headline stories.
The police officer concerned has little justification on the face of it. However, this was towards the end of a very stressful day, which is no
excuse on its own but it is fact!
If I had 10 coppers and six angry dogs up my jacksy I would be making more efforts to get out of the way than he appeared to be doing.
So, was this chap an innocent bystander or a pain in the ass deliberately being obstructive? I know where my money is! Is the copper justified in
his actions? I think on balance no, but hey, what do any of us know about what led up to this?
For context, I'm ambivalent towards the job the police do but I like to look at both perspectives.
I see my point is similar to the recent posts above but I'm just slow at typing! 
[Edited on 8/4/09 by carpmart]
quote:
Originally posted by DaveFJ
The UK is Officially the second worst human rights offender in the world! second only to China!
quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Don't know if the thought police are outside right now, or if one of Stallin's employees is reading this email, or tracking my websites, but I'm often in need of 're-education'.
quote:
Originally posted by sickbag
I think if I'd seen a rather large protest in the street on my way home, then I would have gone another way, and avoided it completely.
I'm not defending the police in the slightest, but he should have chosen another route.
I base the above on comments made in this post, like most, I didn't see the actual event.
Interesting vid section about police and how their role has changed from the 11:30 mark:
http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=john+harris&hl=en&emb=0#
I don't think I could be a policeman in terms of crowd control as I don't think I could separate my own opinions from those of the
protesters (i.e. I'd probably agree with the protesters 9 times out of 10)
Pretty much the same view as carpmart. If you watch the video in the link, it seems strange that there were so many guys with cameras
photographing/videoing this guy. It also seems that one of the officiers with a dog gives him a single handed push (slightly off screen at the time),
just before the one that pushes him over.
I do think that officer was completely out of line. In the video it does seem that he is deliberately getting in the way of the police - I have
almost walked into a similar situation once, and there is absolutely no way you could not realise the police were there and what they were doing. I
just turned round into the side street, waited 1 minute for them to pass.
hugh
Hang on a minute here? Are you really suggesting that getting in the way of a policeman gives them the right to push you over? Unless there's a dispersion order in place that bloke had every right to be there. The police could walk round him you know!
As I said, I agree that it was completely out of order to push the guy over.
Hugh
If there's a full on demo then I'd have guessed that there was a dispersion order. No one wanting to keep out of trouble and just go home
walks right through the front line of a demonstration like that. His body language to me suggests he was expecting something. Hands in pockets
shoulders shrugged as though trying to sink his head lower to protect it and hunched slightly.
Out of interest Ben, I know the mechanics of a heart attack but not too sure on all the triggers. Could this stumble and fall realistically have
caused a heart attack and how?
As I understand it the Police have the right to disperse any gathering of more than 20 people if they feel that they are a threat to the peace... this
rule was used to break up a owners club meeting because they stopped in convoy near Balmoral.
I am unable to find a link to the article about Human rights (which i know weakens my point) but as i remember it there were 3 main points on which we
were seen as failing... Data retention (ID cards and illegal DNA databases etc), Intrusion into privacy (CCTV cameras etc) and retention without
trial (the 'anti terrorism' laws allowing detention without access to a lawyer etc for upto whatever amount of day they are allowed these
days!)
All that being said.. I think this comes under the category of 'shit happens'....
the guy was obviously at risk from heart attack and it could have happened at any time. If he was entirely inncoent why was he there? All
'sensible' people whjo work in the city (myself included) stayed well away. so what if he was pushed? would we have this discussion if
someone else was pushed over, then stood up and walked off? of course not... the guy was ill and in all likely hood didnt know it himself let alone
the policeman knowing it!
what next? sorry you cant arrest me officer because im allergic to prison cells??
well thats my opinion and i fully expect to get flamed.. but as it stands , for now, I am entitled to it some would like to see that otherwise!
[Edited on 8-4-09 by DaveFJ]
[Edited on 8-4-09 by DaveFJ]
Criminal, justice and public order bill 1994 - allows the dispersion of unauthorised gatherings. Originally brought in because of illegal raves in the
90's.
I'm not that sad I just had cause to very briefly mention it in a presentation I did on Friday. 
Well I watched the event live on Sky, it was 7.30pm, way after the main protest clash and the Police were not dispersing rather containing the
population, and did anyone see the other batten charges into the crowd? Totally unnecessary in my view.
There was no reason whatsoever to baton him across the back of the legs and push him over. That copper needs charging with assault.
I reckon if there had been no police there the crowd would have left hours before and the man might still have been alive.
There will be a cover up.
And yes Mike, I believe we are heading to a partial police state, although its been going on for years.
I think many of you would be AMAZED at what the police can and cannot do under the public order bill. It almost makes them judge jury and executioner
on many things.
Feel sorry for the guy and his familly BUT at the end of the day most folk would just have steered well clear.
Police state? Heading that way IMO.
But in this case, it was just one stupid person doing one excessive thing that resulted in someone dropping dead.
Theres some interesting accounts on the Guardian website..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/08/g20-ian-tomlinson-death-witnesses
If the police officer is found to have done the wrong thing and is prosecuted and no longer works for the ploice that is a good thing as it will allow the vast majority of the police who do a good job under very difficult conditiond to continue. Weeding out the unstable police increases the competence levels of those that remain. My sympathies are with the man's family.
...as many have said above, there are usually several sides to a story...
Lo
ndon Evening Standard
It's worth noting that this paper is normally very critical of the government and its agencies.