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Is TOL dead?
Mark Allanson - 21/7/04 at 08:09 PM

Thought I would have a look at TOL, first time in about 12 months. There was a link fron an unfinished locost on ebay.

There is a table on the entry page with the number of posts, there were 1400 posts in june 2001, and 140 in june 2004, and only 41 in july so far.

Looks like this site has had a little influence?

chrisg - 21/7/04 at 08:10 PM

I knew it wouldn't last long without me.

Cheers

Chris

stephen_gusterson - 21/7/04 at 08:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by chrisg
I knew it wouldn't last long without me.

Cheers

Chris



2+ years is a long time for the patient to die


atb

steve

zilspeed - 21/7/04 at 09:49 PM

Yep - it's dead isn't it.

Tell you what though, it was instrumental in lending a major helping hand to the locost phenomenon getting off the ground.
There were some clever people on there. It's a lot easier now - someone's already done most things you would want to do with / to a locost.
I take my hat off to the pioneers. It's come a long way in a short time.

JoelP - 21/7/04 at 10:10 PM

ditto that about the pioneers, i've leaned on a lot of people to get this far. Hats off to those who havent seen but still believe!

TheGecko - 23/7/04 at 04:49 AM

TOL has cone pretty quiet but the two localised lists that spun off it (Locost_Oz and Locost_North_America) are both very active. Oz averages around 250 posts per month (from around 300 members), NA is 600-700 per month (800-odd members).

Most of the UK traffic seems to have ended up here, where people seem inexplicably proud of 5000+ posting counts, which was exactly the sort of thing that could never work on The Old List, with its single public thread rather than this forum/topic arrangement.

It's funny though - although I like the fact that I can ignore things I don't think I'm interested in here (eg I ignore the SVA forum and For Sale as I'm in Oz) I'm sure I miss things that I would have seen on one of the Yahoo lists where I'm reading every message. Plus, I spend heaps of time here clicking up and down through the forums, waiting for a 20-reply thread to load to find out that the new response is 'I agree' or or soemthing equally helpful. On the other lists, the new messages are all sitting in my mailboxes when I get home in the evening.

The email driven lists need disciplined members to keep the signal-noise ratio reasonable. That was the cause of the original blow-up and 'defections/departures' from TOL. The Oz and NA lists seem to survive OK - draw your own conclusions.

spunky - 23/7/04 at 07:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by TheGecko
TOL has cone pretty quiet but the two localised lists that spun off it (Locost_Oz and Locost_North_America) are both very active. Oz averages around 250 posts per month (from around 300 members), NA is 600-700 per month (800-odd members).

Most of the UK traffic seems to have ended up here, where people seem inexplicably proud of 5000+ posting counts, which was exactly the sort of thing that could never work on The Old List, with its single public thread rather than this forum/topic arrangement.

It's funny though - although I like the fact that I can ignore things I don't think I'm interested in here (eg I ignore the SVA forum and For Sale as I'm in Oz) I'm sure I miss things that I would have seen on one of the Yahoo lists where I'm reading every message. Plus, I spend heaps of time here clicking up and down through the forums, waiting for a 20-reply thread to load to find out that the new response is 'I agree' or or soemthing equally helpful. On the other lists, the new messages are all sitting in my mailboxes when I get home in the evening.

The email driven lists need disciplined members to keep the signal-noise ratio reasonable. That was the cause of the original blow-up and 'defections/departures' from TOL. The Oz and NA lists seem to survive OK - draw your own conclusions.




I agree.....

John

stephen_gusterson - 23/7/04 at 08:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by TheGecko

Most of the UK traffic seems to have ended up here, where people seem inexplicably proud of 5000+ posting counts, which was exactly the sort of thing that could never work on The Old List, with its single public thread rather than this forum/topic arrangement.



A. No one on this list has 5,000 posts - not even me.

B. Point to anywhere where I said a high posting rate is a thing to be proud of, or in any way a benefit. In a way its a kinda embarrassment. However, Ive been on here 2 1/2 years, others on the top list have posting rates 2 times higher than mine!



On the TOL thing :

Both the aus and USA lists existed for a considerable amount of time before the list blew up a couple years back. The blow up was very much due to the level of intolerance on the list. Nothing to do with the aus and usa lists. In fact the aus guys used the global list more, until they decided to defect after the 'spam wars' of feb 2002.

What works well, is people using the web site viewer. What doesnt is if (as most seem to do) you get individual emails.

So, the drivel you might get from guster, hippy, chrisg, joelp, etc gets dumped in your face wether you like it or not. Inboxes full of 100 messages a day and a fair few are

'yeah mate, I thought that was bollox too'

or

'whats the fasted uk internet'

or

god forbit - jokes - !


tended to annoy either anal types, or those in Aus that didnt give a crap about sierras, english jokes, or internet.


TOL died cos they had a high ass hole factor. This group has a very low one. If you dont like a poster, you can ignore him. On TOL he looks like a spammer.


An example. When new to this stuff, I posted an engine poll on TOL - it should still be there. In my naivity, I put as two of the engines

Ford Kent

and

Ford Crossflow.

It was pointed out to me in a quite obnoxious and personal way from an Aussise that I was a know nothing. Others were indignant that I even put up a poll. It wasnt the done thing.

Then I was the first to use the completly empty picture section, only to find a week or two later that someting no one used was being accused of personal hijack cos I used 15% of the space.

Ah, the feeling of bitterness, I remeber so well...

I use this list cos I like the vast majority of the people on it - 'for the crack' - and have met many in person. It has a 'local' flavour to it. With TOL you suspected if you met anyone from the list it would likely end in a fight!

I look out for posts from particular people (esp those im my accused list above), and there are very few that I would look at and think 'ah crap, another one from him'


'the crack' keeps people on here. Makes them read the list, and when they do that, they can contribute to the serious stuff. People are not slaves, here to help with instant techie answers. That quickly gets boring. Why read a list if its just 'how do I shorten a rack'. A bit of give and take keeps people on lists, where they will see the serious stuff, an answer questions from their own learning , like 'a crossflow and kent is the same thing'. There are too many (on tol) that thought you were there for their service.

Have you noticed how many regulars post rate drops massively once they finished the car? 'the crack' keeps people here longer, where they can pass on full benefit - chrisG being a positive example.
(now thers a first )



atb

steve


[Edited on 23/7/04 by stephen_gusterson]

[Edited on 23/7/04 by stephen_gusterson]

Kelvin - 23/7/04 at 08:52 AM

quote:
'the crack' keeps people on here. Makes them read the list, and when they do that, they can contribute to the serious stuff. People are not slaves, here to help with instant techie answers. That quickly gets boring. Why read a list if its just 'how do I shorten a rack'. A bit of give and take keeps people on lists, where they will see the serious stuff, an answer questions from their own learning , like 'a crossflow and kent is the same thing'. There are too many (on tol) that thought you were there for their service.


Good point Steve,

I sold my 'project' a couple of years ago, but still lurk here quite regularly, and yes, the itch is returning!! I may have to find another garage for the MR2 very soon.......

Kelvin

David Jenkins - 23/7/04 at 09:11 AM

I used to like TOL when the traffic was at a reasonable level, and I admit to being anti-locostbuilders in the beginning , especially as at that time I was on a pay-as-you-go dialup line. Shipping all the e-mails down in one heap was cost-effective for me. In the end it got monopolised and spoiled by a very small number of anally-retentive obsessives who couldn't ignore statements that weren't 100% correct, as Steve described above, and there were just too many posts anyway.

Now I'm on a fixed-cost dialup - broadband next week! - I can easily cope with this site's comms loading.

My only regret is the loss of the large number of very good people on TOL, from all round the world, who've all gone to their 'local lists' (I hesitated to call a USA or Oz list 'local' as they cover a huge area!).

It's a shame that this group hasn't attracted more international members, but we are very UK-oriented and have only attracted a few Europeans, mostly from Spain, Portugal, Scandinavia and Holland (apologies to any others I've missed!). Or is it simply that these are the only European countries where you stand some chance of getting a self-built car approved and road-legal?

David

[Edited on 23/7/04 by David Jenkins]

MikeP - 23/7/04 at 04:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
In the end it got monopolised and spoiled by a very small number of anally-retentive obsessives who couldn't ignore statements that weren't 100% correct, as Steve described above, and there were just too many posts anyway.

It's a shame that this group hasn't attracted more international members, but we are very UK-oriented and have only attracted a few Europeans, mostly from Spain, Portugal, Scandinavia and Holland (apologies to any others I've missed!).


WTF? What about Canada?

I remember those times fondly Stephen. Your behaviour was well within bounds IMO, and I couldn't understand what the hotheads were on about. At least it really livened up my inbasket , otherwise that list is pretty dull.

chrisg - 24/7/04 at 07:28 PM

All the above has merit, but the main reason for the bust up was that there were too many gits.

Cheers

Chris

stephen_gusterson - 24/7/04 at 07:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by chrisg
All the above has merit, but the main reason for the bust up was that there were too many gits.

Cheers

Chris


I said that, but not as if words were a quid each


atb

steve

TPAFKAMH - 24/7/04 at 10:21 PM

Yeah, but Chris is a Locost pioneer. He's out to save everything he can..