Im in the process of buying a house, an 1940's ex local authority jobbie, and im wondering for the sake of negotion purposes what the going rate is for changing a consumer unit.

Also running a cable from the consumer unit, round the outside wall (8-10m run) to a conservatory and putting in a ring small main, or alteast a pair of double sockets.


Cheers,

Daniel


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Full story.

Orignally it was on was on fuses having been re-wired back in the 70-80's and i mentioned to the vendor (A jobbing builder type, currently living in the property) that I would be changing it at some point once i moved in to which he said 'Its all right I know a load of Electricans and it will only be £50 for me to get it done' which I thought all in all was fair enough, wirings all driven by legal requirments and a job like should be too hard to get right.

But the homebuyers report i had done (£190 worth of peice of mine, if nothing else) highlighted the elec supply as containg alterations of an amateur nature (see direct quote below).
So i had a elec survay done and asked him to quote for anything needing doing to make it safe, which said that several of the breakers in the new box where of the wrong value, 16amp for lighting circurts, 40amp for the (unused) cooker supply that should have been 32, etc. Also that the supply from the meter was undersized (proberbly the origanal, and regs have changed?) and that the wiring to the conservatory ring main that was mentioned in the home buyers was 1.5mm (heavy duty lighting spec) rather than 2.5mm as all ring mains should apprently be. And atleast one continuity issue with the other ring mains. Although he apprently stopped the test after about an hour as it was going to fail and he didnt want to was his time and my money. And has produced a quote for £1100 to put it right. Theres also a wire to the garage, which is an armoured type (clear wrap) run partially under paving the house, but not connected, i mentioned this to the elec and told him not to include it in the survay.

So as im already pushed for cash and need the elec safe before i can take a lodger (only way im making the mortage make sense for the first few years) I asked he we could knock the £1000 of the purchase price.

He's then said to the Estate agent He's already forked out £500 on the consumer unit, including have the bloke back to correct it, and that the wire to the garage under the paving we had already talked about and that it wasnt connected and that he has already lowered his price and that the elec bloke had only been there 10minutes anyway and hadnt looked under the paving.
Apprently he might be good to take some cost off but clearly doesnt want to move the full £1000 (house is 128,500 and present)

The vendors certainly a nice enough bloke, and to a certain extent working help sell the house, but equally is regularly somewhat economical with the truth (he told the sparky that the box had been in 18 months, for instance) in an attemt to improve the image of the house and this isnt the only sign that some the work that is his 'freinds in the trade' have done isnt the best.


Quote from homebuyers

'Alterations have been carried out which appear to be of an amateur nature. There is
limited evidence of earth cross bonding. Externally wiring does not appear to have
adequate protection [cables running down wall and under paving to conservator]).
The electrical installation should be inspected by a suitably
competent person (registered with the Electrical Contractors Association, ECA,
or the National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting, NICEIC)
prior to exchange of contracts.
This is considered to be a health and safety risk and
should be treated as requiring urgent attention. Repair works could be costly and
estimates should be obtained before a commitment to purchase.'


Daniel

I charge £250 for a bs7671 certificate and the going rate of 15 to 20 per hour for repairs to make safe ect
The cost of materials is extra. So a grand wouldnt be far off the mark.

Every part of the install would have to be physically checked as you never know what you will find.
I recently found a 2.5mm leaving a socket arriving in 1.5mm at the other end...
Found a whole kitchen hanging on a 2.5 ........yep lights as well

save some money and fit the wire under the floor if possible to the conservatory just leaving the wire in the right place for the sparky to wire up.

I re wired my whole house replacing all the cables pretty much 1 by 1 and naming them at the socket end and at the new consumer location then the sparky came to fit the unit (which i did all but the RCD's) and he charged £200 in labour so not bad but a pain in arse.

better than £1000 in labour.

my bro did his whole house on his own then paid about £200 for a chap to come in and sign it off. its not difficult to do properly to be honest. there are plenty of good books out there if your not afraid to get stuck in.

£1000 seems like a pretty typical price to sort that out.


to be honest something like that wouldn't stop me buying a house even the seller didn't budge on the price. especially after you have spunked all that money on surveys. from my experience of home surveys they are all a load of crap, the only thing you really need to worry about is that the structure of the house is sound, the rest can be sorted as you go.

at the end of the day if you want a perfect house buy a new one and keep calling the builders back until its how you want it.

If you want an electrical nightmare you ought to come and have a look at our place... 100+ years of addons and bodges..its a nightmare every time you want to work something out.

Half of its radial (albeit on relatively modern T&E), some a questionable ring, and a shed load of spurs. Doesnt help the house is a rambling thing, with various additions at different stages. Theres at least 7 fuse boxes, some with ceramic holders.

But its been like it for at least 40 years (since the last major work was carried out). Would be nice to have a consumer unit fitted and it all sorted, but it will be a fortune as the whole house would need to be rewired.

quote:

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Originally posted by jossey
save some money and fit the wire under the floor if possible to the conservatory just leaving the wire in the right place for the sparky to wire up.

I re wired my whole house replacing all the cables pretty much 1 by 1 and naming them at the socket end and at the new consumer location then the sparky came to fit the unit (which i did all but the RCD's) and he charged £200 in labour so not bad but a pain in arse.

better than £1000 in labour.

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I have just been through exactly the same fun... Our survey picked up the dodgy electrics, so we have opted to do a full rewire of the house. Trying to be the good LCB type,my father in law and I have done the rewire (he is qualified to previous regs, but not current). For a 3 bed house (1937 build, with plenty of rubber coated wiring still in place!), it has cost £1200 alone in parts (they really add up). We planned to pay an independent electrician to test, sign off and certify the work as suggested by the BCO, but I have been unable to find a sparky willing to do that (some say it is illegal, others say not unless there is some installation work for them too). So in the end, we are having ours inspected by the Building Control electrician, at a cost of £75 - bargain me thinks!

You will have to comply with current Building regs for thw work you are thinking of (including BCO sign off), so I would be wary that a quick replacement of consumer until, amy turn into a much larger job. For the purposed of negotiation, I would look to take £2k off the asking proce to cover the work, and certification of the work....

Good luck, and wish me luck for our inspection/sign off tomorrow!

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Originally posted by ashg
my bro did his whole house on his own then paid about £200 for a chap to come in and sign it off. its not difficult to do properly to be honest. there are plenty of good books out there if your not afraid to get stuck in.

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Originally posted by davestarck

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Originally posted by ashg
my bro did his whole house on his own then paid about £200 for a chap to come in and sign it off. its not difficult to do properly to be honest. there are plenty of good books out there if your not afraid to get stuck in.

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Any decent electrician will not sign off other peoples DIY attemps at wiring, I certainly will not. if it was so simple to do why did I spend years at college, been in the trade for 30 years and I'm still learning. Any one can wire a house but not anyone can wire a house correctly

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i would never sign someone elses work off, unless i completed a full periodic inspection report and charged for it. why risk putting your name to something which may not be correct? and then finding yourself in the firing line if it goes tits up!
good luck though mate,and as steve said. dont let it put you off.

quote:

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Originally posted by stevegough


And Dave (Flak monkey) - get your house wiring sorted out properly! You know you would regret it when it burns down and the insurers refuse to pay out after the investigators discover dodgy wiring that you knew about?

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quote:

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Originally posted by flak monkey

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Originally posted by stevegough


And Dave (Flak monkey) - get your house wiring sorted out properly! You know you would regret it when it burns down and the insurers refuse to pay out after the investigators discover dodgy wiring that you knew about?

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Its not dodgy, just doesnt comply with current regs Certainly nothing unusual for a house of this age.

Everything is fused properly for the cable sizes. Looks worse than it is

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Yeah, that'd be the one

As above the whole idea people often have of doing it themselves then getting a spark to 'sign it off' is not how it's supposed to work and many sparkies wouldn't entertain the idea. They are afterall putting their name to and becomming liable for someone else's work and potentially risking their scheme registration, and it is arguably illegal. But if you can find a spark who's prepared to do that for beer money based on whatever inspection and testing they are happy with, then fair enough - saves you paying building control fees.

The way DIY work is supposed to happen by the book is you inform building control via a building notice and they then become responsible for the inspections and testing. Many LABCs (including mine) flat out refused to do this, instead insisting the DIYer contracted a spark to carry out a PIR upon completion. Well if LABC's are happy to accept PIRs for a brand new installation and prepared to issue the completion certs that's up to them! Things have changed slightly recently when the building regs were updated to allow LABCs to charge for the inspection/testing (previous guidance said they had to pay for it themselves - hence all the refusal), so many now will do the inspection/testing properly and just charge extra for it (in addition to your initial building notice fees). Some, like mine, still can't be arsed and still ask for a PIR.

The other option is getting your LABC to recognise your 'competence' and to accept the full Electrical Installation Cert from yourself, in which case you can do the lot including testing. This is what I managed to do with the full rewire for my renovation . That option should have been open for Teybrow too with his qualified old man, although for £75 quid may as well save yourself the bother, especially if the old man didn't have calibrated test kit.

[Edited on 6/6/11 by Liam]

As said you shouldn't ask a spark to sign off your work because PartP is a self-certification system IE they sign off their own work.

But of course if you're up to the job you can get an electrician to do a cerficate of conformity and then get your local and friendly building control officer to sign it off. Which is all above board. Trouble is the CoC costs, as does getting BCO to sign it off.

You wouldn't attempt surgery on someone because you watch Holby City so leave the electrics to us sparkys

one the one hand it isnt rocket science, but then again, fault finding is a pain without a tester. If you are redecorating, it might be easier to rewire it all now. I cant stand certifying old bodged circuits, so tend to always run new circuits when fitting a kitchen.

flak monkey; if you have spurs on spurs on spurs on a 30 amp ring circuit then im affraid your cables arent correctly sized unless they are not wired on a 2.5 t+e.
2.5 wont carry 30 amps. so what you have is a 30 amp radial circuit spurred of a ring!

quote:

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Originally posted by davestarck
You wouldn't attempt surgery on someone because you watch Holby City so leave the electrics to us sparkys

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Originally posted by jossey
save some money and fit the wire under the floor if possible to the conservatory just leaving the wire in the right place for the sparky to wire up.

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Originally posted by ashg£1000 seems like a pretty typical price to sort that out.

To be honest something like that wouldn't stop me buying a house even the seller didn't budge on the price. especially after you have spunked all that money on surveys. from my experience of home surveys they are all a load of crap, the only thing you really need to worry about is that the structure of the house is sound, the rest can be sorted as you go.

at the end of the day if you want a perfect house buy a new one and keep calling the builders back until its how you want it.

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Originally posted by KrismcI agree i went to uni too and hate others trying too do my work, but law says competent people for most the installs bit and full elecy for testing and DB. Id sign other peoples work off as long as i can see with the facias off and see the wiring both ends, why not? unless they look like a plonk of try and hide things.

Any one can get 17th edition its so easy now.

EDit to say, id £1000 - £2000 to change your consumer unit, run a ring main to conservatory, test all you house wiring, and isolate all the unsafe bits.

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From that report he now shouldnt be selling a house that is a now deemed a health and safety risk, at the least he should have the parts removed that are unsafe or isolated and marked by a competant person, or he should rewire that section, either way he should have someone sign off its safe - and if he runs or lets people run a 2.5 ring outside under pavement and without protection and visible then i would worry about the other things he lets people do to his house.

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I did my rewire with...

John Whitfield's Electrician's Guide (plenty of technical detail)
The 17th On Site Guide (essential)
And probably most important of all: Signing up to DIYnot.com electrical section (particularly the search function).

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Originally posted by daniel mason
flak monkey; if you have spurs on spurs on spurs on a 30 amp ring circuit then im affraid your cables arent correctly sized unless they are not wired on a 2.5 t+e.
2.5 wont carry 30 amps. so what you have is a 30 amp radial circuit spurred of a ring!

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Up until 3 years ago I ran a business as a part P registered electrician. I once asked my registering body if I could complete and then certificate someone else's abandoned work. (The other guy was niceic registered). They would not let me do it. They said as I had not been present when the cables were put in I could not be aware of the rigours they were subjected to during erection. The could have been bent passed their maximum bend radius or chaffed etc. We had to pull the whole lot out and start again, just as well as the other guys work was utter pants. So much for NICEIC!

That's not to mention having to have test equipment up to the 17th edition standards to test the installation. I don't know many amateurs with £400 AVO's and RCD testers as well as ELI testers sitting in the draw and calibrated yearly. Of course, if you do have the right equipment and the knowledge to wire to 17th Edition then you can do the whole thing on a building notice. This is what I now do for the odd job that I still undertake. The last job a month ago was to wire up a grid tied solar array which was signd of on a building notice. Building control do NOT need to check electrical integrity, they are not qualified to do so, only Wether you have adversely affected the buildings structure by drilling holes in the wrong places etc.

If you don't know what you are doing, leave sparky things alone or you may well pay an unpleasant price. It is recognised that as little as 50mA at 230v can kill a human being!

Visited the property last night.

The new consumer unit is a sizable Wylex affear (something like 16 bay) with a main switch and a pair of RCDs each with around 6 MCB below it, around half of which are empty.
The vendor has had his elec back to (or has himself) move the lighting circuit from the 16amp mcb it was on to a 6amp, and the same with the cooker (40 to 32) and Imersion, also moved the stickers on the cover to suit. Which removes that issue. Why my elec couldnt have offered to do taht on the day of the test i dont know and neather does the vendor.

The cabling to the conservator doesnt run outside as suggested by my elec, it runs in the ceiling/underfloor void, and although exposed at floor leval in the conservatory itself due the skirting board being missing (not other option on where to run it given its floor-ceiling with glass) which i had seen, this doesnt worry me much as i can just replace the skirtingboard. It also gives ample opertunity to inspect the cable thinkness at this end as well as in the consumer unit and its is clearly 2.5mm not 1.5mm as reported. Not sure whats going on there.

The 6mm 'undersized' earth still remains, as i assume does the continuity on netural and earth of the one house ring main, but assuming the continuity error isnt in the middle of a cable but behind one of the sockets the latter should be an easy fix if nothing else. I dont know whar size the main earth should be, or the implications of it being 6mm?

The vendor also suggested that although the ring goes through each of the upstairs sockets, the downstairs ones are all on a spur of a single lenght dropped from the ring main. All in 2.5m. Which is apprently, and i see no reason why it would have changed, how it was wired when the council put it in back int 1983 before it became privatly owned. This wasnt picked up on the survay I had done.
I dont know how common that is, obviously you effectivly have a short lenght of 2.5mm with a 32amp breaker infornt of it, to a single double socket (max 26amp). Thoughts?


Daniel

[Edited on 9/6/2011 by dhutch]

earth should have been upgraded to 10mm when the board was swapped, though if he had only done minor works the 6mm can usually be justified with a simple calculation.

You can spur one socket off a ring no probs, but not a whole daisy chain of them. The 2.5mm cable is rated to about 22A iirc (im not getting books out on my lunch break!), so in reality even one spur could melt it, though apparently the socket itself would melt if you took the full 26a off it. With a bit of jiggery pokery you could rearrange it into one big ring, or just make the downstairs a seperate circuit with a 20a fuse.

sounds like your spark was trying to get some work!

[Edited on 9/6/11 by JoelP]

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Originally posted by JoelPsounds like your spark was trying to get some work!

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