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Defective vehical dispute.
dhutch - 13/6/11 at 11:37 PM

On Saturday I was given a HORT1 for a missing rear bumper.

I have no issue with producing my paperwork to my nominated station, however as the car is in the exact same condition as it was presented for its MOT 6 months previously which, with minor alterations to provide a numberplate light and to reduced sharp edges, it passed. With the only advisory item being the missing bumper i feel obliged to question the discrepancy. It not ideal, but its not bad, and it passed without issue. The car is otherwise, in a tidy and original state.

Following advice given by my local station i have requested to speak to the PC's Sergent, however he is away for the week.

It has also been suggested on another forum I have the car re-MOT'ed or take it for a 'Modified Car Test' whatever that is.

Not quite sure how I would request a second MOT without arousing suspicion but otherwise this appears to be a good idea.


Any advice welcomed in this hour of need!




Daniel

snapper - 14/6/11 at 05:50 AM

I take it this is for a tin top modified to remove rear bumper?
If so you are in a bit of a grey area.
If you are going to dispute this with plod make sure all your other documentation is 100%, I.e. Your insurance company are fully aware of the modifications, this is what plod will scrutinise next.

froggy - 14/6/11 at 05:55 AM

Mot legislation is the the road traffic act , the police use construction and use regs . Put a picture up of the car with no bumper .

If you have a sharp edge or other defect that would be in breach of c+u then he can stop you and deal with you accordingly . As you haven't been given a vdr ( defect rectification notice) im not sure what your problem is ?

dhutch - 14/6/11 at 06:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by snapper
I take it this is for a tin top modified to remove rear bumper?
Yes this is correct, a Peugeot 306 with rear towbar fitted.

quote:
Originally posted by snapperIf so you are in a bit of a grey area.
If you are going to dispute this with plod make sure all your other documentation is 100%, I.e. Your insurance company are fully aware of the modifications, this is what plod will scrutinise next.
Although I can make changes to both the car and insurance policy, at the time of the alleged no 'modification' was recored on the insurance. I informed them i had a towbar fitted which they say they did did not need to recored and that the rear bumper was missed and had been since the mot, which they also said was fine as long as it was ok by the MOT. But again this was a verbal and i have no record of it.

jabs - 14/6/11 at 06:41 AM

Why would a HORT/1 be given for a missing bumper? He may have stopped you because the bumper was missing but I then assume you got the HORT / 1 because you couldn't show all your documentation to him.

dhutch - 14/6/11 at 06:48 AM

quote:
Originally posted by froggy
Mot legislation is the the road traffic act , the police use construction and use regs . Put a picture up of the car with no bumper .

If you have a sharp edge or other defect that would be in breach of c+u then he can stop you and deal with you accordingly . As you haven't been given a vdr ( defect rectification notice) im not sure what your problem is ?

Annoyingly i have also lost my camera the same weekend, and my phone is in for repair (talk about buses) but I will try and find a camera i can borrow and get a photo of it, both for the forum and my own record.

The sharp steel edges have been covered (with body colour silver tape) to a radius of around 4-5mm, the two pertruding bump mounting brackets toa simular radius using bicycle innertube, leaving just the relatively flexible plastic arch liners, which have an edge around 3mm thick, which appears to be one of his areas of contention. There is also around 10mm intrusion on the otherwise standard numberplate which he highlighted.

I have not been given a rectification notice (although he advised i was required to correct the fault before driving the car again) however I understand he has, or is going to, fill a report against me which will emerge as a court summons. I already have 11 points for a flurry of speeding offenses two years ago. (otherwise clean for 6 years)

Thanks for you help so far.


Daniel

dhutch - 14/6/11 at 06:48 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jabs
Why would a HORT/1 be given for a missing bumper? He may have stopped you because the bumper was missing but I then assume you got the HORT / 1 because you couldn't show all your documentation to him.

I had my photocard with me, which he saw, but not my counterpart of MOT/Insurance which are the other docs he has requested.

r1_pete - 14/6/11 at 07:19 AM

HO.RT/1 is issued for non endorsable offences, just produce your documents within the 7 days, and take it from there.

Can't you refit the bumper with a cut out for the towball? if you show some effort to rectifying the issue they have, no doubt they will let things go, no point going into battle with them for what could be an easy fix, and one which will make your car look a whole lot better.

dhutch - 14/6/11 at 07:48 AM

quote:
Originally posted by r1_peteCan't you refit the bumper with a cut out for the towball? if you show some effort to rectifying the issue they have, no doubt they will let things go, no point going into battle with them for what could be an easy fix, and one which will make your car look a whole lot better.

The problem appears to be that when peogote face lifted the 306 (mines a v-reg) they bear in mind the towbar meaning the main bar fouls right the way along the center by about two inchs which would need a 3ft wide area removing. I thought i was going to make my life easy by getting the OEM bar (used of ebay) but it turns out i would proberbly have been better with a witter bar although i havent seen one of these fitted to a facelift model.
Obvisouly with hinds sight i would have dont things diffrently but having thought the advice of the local garage and be told it would not be an issue (for the MOT or otherwise) I didnt think much of it. I live opersite the police station in Uttoxeter and am often followed down the road by a polcie car and have never had a car stop me for the bumper.

IM certainly going to get it sorted, and in the mean time remove the towbar and refitt the bumper before i drive the car again. However before I do that i would like to have it inspected in its current state and photograph it.

Hence the plan to get it re-MOTed, by the same garage or another. What do you think of the suggestion of having the car put through a ESVA to get a more indepth test?


Daniel

Ninehigh - 14/6/11 at 08:04 AM

Ok this brings up a few questions, which may or may not be relevant.
1. If it's defective how does it get past an MOT?
2. If you live NEXT DOOR to a police station, and been followed half as many times as you claim how's it taken them six months (at least) to figure this out.
3. How is it defective? I mean how do you know fitting some chunks of bumper is going to do any good
4. Have you been ordered to rectify the "problem"? By the sound of it this is just a producer of documents

r1_pete - 14/6/11 at 09:00 AM

Personally I just wouldn't go into battle over this.

You are going to re fit the bumper, produce your documents, whuch should be an end to the rozzers interest.

Now please dont take this as patronising, but, if you can build a car, you can overcome the issue of the towbar fouling the bumper, as you live close by the police station, it really isn't worth being marked, do as they ask and they'll leave you alone.

steve m - 14/6/11 at 09:04 AM

Take the tow bar off when not towing and fit the the bumper

dhutch - 14/6/11 at 10:29 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh
Ok this brings up a few questions, which may or may not be relevant.
1. If it's defective how does it get past an MOT?
2. If you live NEXT DOOR to a police station, and been followed half as many times as you claim how's it taken them six months (at least) to figure this out.
3. How is it defective? I mean how do you know fitting some chunks of bumper is going to do any good
4. Have you been ordered to rectify the "problem"? By the sound of it this is just a producer of documents


1. It has been suggest by the officer that certain items may pass an MOT but not police requirement, however other sources suggest that although this is the case, the rear bumper is not one of these areas.
2. I havent been pulled by my local force, the alogation comes from an officer in the DyfedPowys region following my driving to Aberythwith to collect my girlfriend and help her move as she just graduated.
3. In partiuarlar i understand he took issue with the sharp edges of the plastic arch liner and the fact that the top 10mm of the number plate was obsured by tape. And just generally stated that it being missing was an offence.
4. I have had no written order to rectify the problem, the only paperwork i took away was the HORT1, however he is verbally advised it must be corrected before the vehical is driven again and as said, I understand he is putting together a file which will result in a court summons.



quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
Personally I just wouldn't go into battle over this.

You are going to re fit the bumper, produce your documents, whuch should be an end to the rozzers interest.

Now please dont take this as patronising, but, if you can build a car, you can overcome the issue of the towbar fouling the bumper, as you live close by the police station, it really isn't worth being marked, do as they ask and they'll leave you alone.

I largly agree with this, but as I am already on max points I dont want to leave anything that might result in a ban to chance. I dont want a fight, I jsut dont want penaising for something im dont belive im guilty of.
I also take you point that i could have found a better solution beforehand, and with hinds sight I agree, however at far as im aware it is not and was not illegal so didnt consider it overly important.


Daniel

blakep82 - 14/6/11 at 10:43 AM

lol, loads of people saying refit the bumber and forget it.

remember that of all the cars built by people on here, how many have bumpers? so this copper is saying everyones cars on here are not legal because they don't have a front or rear bumper?

speak to the sargeant, the copper that pulled you clearly doesn't understand the law, this is a minor thing, could be something more serious, with bigger consequences that he gets wrong next time. a bit extreme maybe, but his errors need pointing out imo

edit: reading earlier posts, with the hort1 (producer), asking for license, mot, insurance etc, seems like the normal info asked for any similar sort of stop. if thats all they want, then theres no issue really

[Edited on 14/6/11 by blakep82]

dhutch - 14/6/11 at 11:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by blakep82speak to the sargeant

edit: reading earlier posts, with the hort1 (producer), asking for license, mot, insurance etc, seems like the normal info asked for any similar sort of stop. if thats all they want, then theres no issue really

I think speaking to his sergeant has to be a good call, unfortunatly he is off this week, but I shall be endevoring to speak to him on his return for sure. As is finding a solution where the bumper can be fitted with the towbar.

I however also keen to get some sort of profesisonal 3rd party assement done before any changes are made.

If it was just a producer all would be ok, but as I say, he read my a caution and I understand he is taking it to court, which is the issue, partiarly as any points at all would result in a totting up ban.


Daniel

stevebubs - 14/6/11 at 02:54 PM

Was it in or around aberystwyth? If so, there is a known local copper who likes to pull on the slightest things....he's even been known to take a light meter to measure the light passing through factory fit windows...

stevebubs - 14/6/11 at 02:55 PM

Take it to your local police station (it's opposite) and ask their opinion...don't say why, just that you have a problem with the tow bar and want to make sure you're still legal...I'm sure someone will walk over the road with you...

blakep82 - 14/6/11 at 03:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by stevebubs
Was it in or around aberystwyth? If so, there is a known local copper who likes to pull on the slightest things....he's even been known to take a light meter to measure the light passing through factory fit windows...


hmm, didn't think a copper was allowed to do that, thought only someone from vosa could test that? in which case, how is his particular meter calibrated and approved? hmmm

mrwibble - 14/6/11 at 03:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
quote:
Originally posted by stevebubs
Was it in or around aberystwyth? If so, there is a known local copper who likes to pull on the slightest things....he's even been known to take a light meter to measure the light passing through factory fit windows...


hmm, didn't think a copper was allowed to do that, thought only someone from vosa could test that? in which case, how is his particular meter calibrated and approved? hmmm


sounds to me like its approved by captain jobsworth powertrip.

dhutch - 14/6/11 at 03:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by stevebubs
Was it in or around aberystwyth? If so, there is a known local copper who likes to pull on the slightest things....he's even been known to take a light meter to measure the light passing through factory fit windows...

Interestingly enough, not only was it while driving through aberystwyth but he did mention the measuring of window tints at the time.

Daniel

[Edited on 14/6/2011 by dhutch]

dhutch - 14/6/11 at 03:44 PM

The Police station is only open 9 till 5 and as I work 8.30 till 5 (Mon till Fri) I can only usally get there on Fridays when I finish at four. But Im hoping to take an hour off tomorrow afternoon in order to do this.

I have also phoned the garage who passed the car (also on the same road) who also sounded supprised that it had become an issue. And am taking it in tomorrow for them to inspect. They say that assuming its in an MOTable condition (which i assuming it is, as its not changed in the 6months since it last past) that they would be more than happy to sign off a defect form. So watch this space i guess.


Daniel

robinj66 - 14/6/11 at 05:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dhutch
If it was just a producer all would be ok, but as I say, he read my a caution and I understand he is taking it to court, which is the issue, partiarly as any points at all would result in a totting up ban.
Daniel



The HORT/1 ("producer" is just a requirement to produce the documents named in that form at a specified police station within 7 days. This used to be fairly routine after a "chat with the boys in blue". Remember to take both parts of your D/L. You should be given a HORT/2 when the docs have been produced.

NB it is a separate offence to fail to produce any of the documents specified in the producer. You would get penalty points.


The reading of a caution etc is a verbal Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) - that puts you on notice that any possible offences are under investigation and that you may receive a summons to court at some time in the future.

Do get photos etc of your car in it's current state and someting in writing from your MOT tester etc to confirm your vehicle is not in a dangerous condition.

If the worst comes to the worst, seek legal advice (especially if you asked to the police station for a "chat" but not all Dangerous use offences are endorseable (carry penalty points)

dhutch - 15/6/11 at 09:27 AM

quote:
The HORT/1 ("producer" is just a requirement to produce the documents named in that form at a specified police station within 7 days. This used to be fairly routine after a "chat with the boys in blue". Remember to take both parts of your D/L. You should be given a HORT/2 when the docs have been produced.

NB it is a separate offence to fail to produce any of the documents specified in the producer. You would get penalty points.
Taken an hour off work today to do this, will make sure I get a HORT2.

quote:
The reading of a caution etc is a verbal Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) - that puts you on notice that any possible offences are under investigation and that you may receive a summons to court at some time in the future.

Do get photos etc of your car in it's current state and someting in writing from your MOT tester etc to confirm your vehicle is not in a dangerous condition.

If the worst comes to the worst, seek legal advice (especially if you asked to the police station for a "chat" but not all Dangerous use offences are endorseable (carry penalty points)

Took photos last night, went home to parents to collect docs and use there camera, sadly dad had taken it with him visiting my sister and ended up using a phone but the photos look ok and i got some close ups to make up for the reduced quality.

Car is currently at the Garage that origanally MOTed in 6months ago and i have reqested they do another full MOT and write a letter stating in there eyes the rear is ok, and that the general presentation of the car is good.

IM also going to a Soliceters today to sign the documents for my house so will enquire as to what they can offer by way of legal advice on the subject. I have legal cover with my motoring insurence, although im not sure what it covers.


Daniel

dhutch - 15/6/11 at 12:21 PM

Well, for whatever its worth, it passed an MOT today without complication.

loggyboy - 15/6/11 at 07:04 PM

Sure the answer is to fit one that does allow the bumper to be retained.

dhutch - 15/6/11 at 10:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Sure the answer is to fit one that does allow the bumper to be retained.
In hinds sight i should have done this a lot earlier. The origanal job was done when i was a student and a time i had very little money so having spent £80 on a OEM pug bar (used of ebay) it was somewhat annoying it didnt fit. I used it once for a one off, and put it back with a mind to modding it to fit, but then as there type approved didnt want to do that, put it back on, used it again a few times, asked the local MOT center, and it all sort of stuck. I understand the witter ones fit much better, so thats clearly the next card to play. For now its going back tow-bar less for a few weeks.


Daniel

stevebubs - 15/6/11 at 11:10 PM

Daniel,

If you want to U2U me, I'll put you in touch with a "local" who *may* be able to offer some advice as to how to deal with this particular copper. He may not do, but can't hurt.

Stephen

(It wasn't on the big hill you drive down as you coming to Aber, was he? That's normally where he lurks...)

[Edited on 16/6/11 by stevebubs]

dhutch - 16/6/11 at 11:46 PM

More details including the details of the location here:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=62479&st=0

Dave Ashurst - 17/6/11 at 06:45 AM

Just an observation; the numberplate mount is in the rear bumper.

Do you still have a rear number plate with working number plate lights?

dhutch - 17/6/11 at 07:32 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Ashurst
Just an observation; the numberplate mount is in the rear bumper.
Do you still have a rear number plate with working number plate lights?

The car was and is fitted with the orgianal standard size and configuartion number plate, attached to the steel work, in a very simular location to it is found when attached the to the bumper. And an alternative number plate light as been securely attached above it, wired into the existing feed. The top 10mm of the number plate was obscured with black tape.


Daniel