I'll be buying a house as an investment soon and figure my "oh that socket was there before 2005" won't work when restoring a whole property.

What's the quickest, easiest and cheapest way to get whatever paper big brother needs me to have so I can self-cert electrical installations?

I have no formal electrical training.

unless you know a spark well there is no option but to cough up and pay for a re wire especially if its for rental you will need a safety cert anyway. if you are doing major work some sparks will let you do the donkey work and run all the cables leaving them to make all the connections and fit the board, thats how i did my spec build but they still charged me £750 per house for second fix and test.

AFAIK there is no easy or cheap way to self certify. even with the relevant electrical qualifications, which will cost you thousands if you have no experience, and all the calibrated test gear needed you will still need to certify through a recognised body, NIC, NAPPIT, ELECSA etc, i do it through corgi. My advice would be to find a good niceic registered sparky and let him have the hassle.
Bloke i use charges me £50 for a single circuit test and certify, obviously more for a full install test and certify, as it can take a while to do.]

So I'm probably best doing the work and paying for it to be inspected by a certified sparky? £50/circuit doesn't sound bad.

yes if you can find a spark that will cert someone elses work ,you may find most wont test work they havent done my spark let do he firdt fix as it was new build so i couldnt hide anything and i still had to change a few things before he would second fix everything.

a layperson is unlikely to know the regs well enough to do work to a high enough standard that a proper sparky will be able to certify it, or that they would risk putting their name to it.

I did a 4 day course, cost about £300, which gave me a domestic installer certificate. Then you have about £400 in NICEIC fees, and the same again for a decent test meter (i use a metrel easytest).

Yeah, you need to find a sparky and build up a relationship with them, so they know they can trust your work. Also the big stumbling block on older properties is usually the earth bonding which needs to be up to scratch. Even if the circuit you have worked on is ok, certain parts of the installation may need bringing up to spec i.e main bonding to Gas and water. Its a minefield, thats why even though i'm qualified to self certify (at great cost) i now sub it to a sparky whenever possible. New regs for water/plumbing are now in, and will be coming into force soon. same scenario as gas and leccy, you will need to be qualified and self certify. Spend more time filling in paperwork than fitting boilers soon.




Originally posted by froggy
yes if you can find a spark that will cert someone elses work ,you may find most wont test work they havent done my spark let do he firdt fix as it was new build so i couldnt hide anything and i still had to change a few things before he would second fix everything.

And all this to try and save the 10 people a year that die because they are stupid enough to get shocked. What a load of bollocks!

welcome to the wonderful world of property developement

you dont have to be stupid to get shocked! I think 10 lives a year is well worth the effort, especially if you knew one of them! As it happens, i get shocked most weeks at work, the novelty soon wears off.

If I can learn the SVA regs I'm sure the electrical regs would be a walk in the park

theres your answer then but as a percentage of a refurb budget the wiring isnt that large ,and more money can be saved by doing all your plumbing and c/h work

My reading of the regulations suggested that I could do the work myself and get building control to inspect it. If I need to, I can find the relavent .gov web address

See my post above r.e plumbing, wont be long before you will need a certificate in joinery to lift the floorboards!

and more money can be saved by doing all your plumbing and c/h work

stock up on as much red and black cable as possible, remember to put sleeving on the earths don't run the cables too neatly and it was all done during a previous refurb sir!

I am sick to death of deffective work by "proper" electricians particualy when doing work "to make existing wiring conform to regs". I lost 3 weekends of work on my locost due to incorrect breakers being installed in the supply to my lock up, in this case a 20A B rated breaker in the locked supply location and 80 A breaker at my end with 16A breakers to the sockets!!! It took a while for me to realise why the supply failed at weekends, the 20A was being blown out by my welder but the 16a was staying in.

Getting the correct ratings and trip speed of breakers is vital to proper protection I have another job where the hierarchy of breakers was so wrong one lamp blowing took out a whole commercial room lighting!

The other repeated fault I come across is defective Neutrals in 3 phase distribution boxes usually links not properly tightened or neutrals all connected to earhing bars, this is a serious issue as the result can be 380V between live and neutral not healthy for any equipment!

Finally in this rant dodgy earthing particularly on domestic installations. The worst I saw was a bath at 240V because all the earth wires in the original installation were connected to plumbing however the drain runs had been changed to plastic pipe! The "new" earth bonds were connected at the bath sink etc however when given a tug came out of the wall as they were not run anywhere just shoved into the wall and plastered over.

All these jobs have been done by fully qualified sparks working for a variety of established electrical contractors. I may not have qualifications BUT I KNOW DAMNED WELL I HAVE NEVER LEFT ANY WORK IN A POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS CONDITION. If something happens it will remain extremely difficult to pin responsibility on any contractor or individual electrician after a year or so following practical completion.

Caber

[Edited on 8/2/2006 by caber]

The problem is I am buying to do up and sell so a survey by a buyer may turn up the fact I haven't filed any paperwork if I just wing it.

I've just read the entire Approved Document P as found here:-

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/en/4000000001253.html

Section C 1.26 (Where installers are not qualified to complete BS7671 certificates) states:-

"... Building control bodies will carry out the necessary inspection and testing at their expense, not at the householders expense."

Can anyone confirm that I could do the work and then have the local authority inspect it free of charge?

i cant tell you for sure mate, but i thought that there was a £50 per day fine for any errors. Deffo worth a call to the local authority though?

This is very interesting:-

http://www.communities.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1131042

Worth reading it all.

quote:

---

Originally posted by caber
Getting the correct ratings and trip speed of breakers is vital to proper protection I have another job where the hierarchy of breakers was so wrong one lamp blowing took out a whole commercial room lighting!

---

blue and brown wire was available early in 2004, before part p came into force, so provided any work you do happened then you are sorted.

I emailed Building Control regarding this:-

Sir

Please can you send me more information on the processes involved with the local building authority testing and certifying electrical work carried out by a person not qualified to issue a BS7671 certificate i.e. DIY?

Many thanks.

--
Regards

Andy Harding


And got the expected response:-

Dear Mr Harding

I refer to your e mail enquiring about the inspection and testing aspect of a
notifiable electrical installation under Part P of the Building Regulations.

Stoke on Trent Building Control advises applicants at a very early stage
(included on application form) that they should have a qualified electrician to
undertake their electrical work (City & Guilds 2381 Installation and 2391
testing).

On completion Building Control will then require a certificate for design,
installation and testing to be issued in accordance with BS7671together with
proof of qualification of the competent person who has carried out the work.

A small charge for administration is required with the application, dependant
on the cost of works.

If I may be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards

Kevin Obrey
Building Regulations Manager


I'm still waiting for a response to my reply:-

Although not formally recognised I have a good understanding of BS7671 and am competent enough to undertake any works to the standard required. As such, hiring a "qualified" electrician would be a waste of money.

My interpretation of ODPM Approved Document P (2006 edition), specifically Section 1 1.24-27 (page 11/12), leads my to believe that in the event an installer is not qualified to complete a BS7671 completion certificate (i.e. DIYers) then Building Control or their sub-contractors will inspect and test the installation and issue a Building Regulations completion certificate or a final certificate respectively. Furthermore, Building Control will carry out the necessary inspection and testing at their own expense not mine.

Please could you clarify the above, specifically with regard to the inspection and testing process required for "DIY" electrical installations?

I look forward to your response.

--
Kind Regards

Andy Harding

their first reply seems very wrong doesnt it. They have completely missed the point that approved contractors do not need to inform building control at all.

Only those registered under a self cert scheme.

You can have C&G and not be registered self cert and then you need to notify.

this document might be of use:


You do not need to tell
your local authority’s
Building Control Department
about:
 repairs, replacements and
maintenance work; or
 extra power points or lighting
points or other alterations to
existing circuits (except in a
kitchen or bathroom, or
outdoors).
You need to tell them about
most other work.
If you are not sure about this, or
you have any questions, ask
your local authority’s Building
Control Department.


A clear flow chart shows that normal people may carry out the above work. See attached document

i might be wrong but i don't think building control will carry out the tests themselves but will require a test certificate, signed by a person who is qualified to stand over the electrical instalation. I know most sparky's wouldn't like going in to test another persons work especially someone who has little or know knowledge of electrical systems. BUT If you buy a copy of the IEE ON-SITE GUIDE BS 7671 :2001 (2004) (This is a shortened version of the full regulations and much more understandable)and carry out the work accordingly i would just ask a local contractor to inspect the system. Don't tell them it was a home done job or he may not want to know.

Hope this helps

PS The regs might have been updated but if so a new version of the on site guide will be available.

Response:-
Dear Mr Harding,

It is our understanding that the reasoning behind the provision and implementation of Part P is to encourage people having electrical work
undertaken to employ the services of a competent person who is qualified to issue the correct certification in accordance with BS 7671.

This is a genuine attempt to reduce the number of injuries and fatalities that occur annually due to incorrect installation, faulty workmanship and
inadequate/incorrect testing of existing and new installations. To this extent we follow the spirit of the regulations and encourage everyone to use only
qualified electrical contractors which concurs with the adopted procedure that I have explained to you in my previous e mail.

However, you are correct in your interpretation of Approved Document P (Design & Installation of Electrical Installations - 2006 edition) with regard
to a DIY installation and our Building Regulation charge for the service should be set appropriate to the work involved.

You may be aware that in the construction field it is recognised that third party contractor evaluation of another (unqualified) contractors work can often
lead to conflict, delay and additional expense - not least of all to the client.

The City Council's Building Regulation Team is responsible to the Council Tax payer therefore any noticable call on resources which are not at least self
financing can have a serious effect in terms of overall service delivery. With this in mind we are currently reviewing procedures and practices relevant to
Part P with our legal advisors.

Regards

Kevin Obrey
Building Regulations Manager


Comments?

sounds like they don't like it and are trying to fight it internally to me.

in the mean time they are suggesting you will have trouble getting your own work passed and it will cost you and delay the project (imho).

Ned.

I've managed to convince a local college to let me sit C&G 2381 and 2391 without doing the course so I'll get the bits of paper and beat em at their own game

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoelP
you dont have to be stupid to get shocked! I think 10 lives a year is well worth the effort, especially if you knew one of them! As it happens, i get shocked most weeks at work, the novelty soon wears off.

---

I doubt they'll ban cars...

...more likely to bring in legislation which means you must employ a competent and qualified contractor to drive (and park) them for you

In reality probably not a bad thing as most people with a driving license are not competant or IMO qualified to drive cars on public highways