Im thinking of fitting water injection but my knowledge on the subject is a bit thin........


Is it worth fitting??what do you think/would do??

can I damage my engine if not setup correctly? will I need another rolling road session and how do yo know what jet to fit?????


Thanks

Dilley.

Here's a good setup ...



.... or am I on the wrong track?

too much water and the engine will have trouble compressing it, bending conrods and things.

Haw are you going to do it? two fuel injectors or a fuel injectors for the water plus carbs for the fuel? Single water injector in the manifold plus ordinary fuelling?

Im not too sure, im running carbs, so I assume 1 injector in the plenum or inlet hose??

Yup. Hydraulic lock is a distinct possibility.
The main problem with water injection though in most cases is the amount of water required (added weight)...

It's also expensive, and you only get extra power because it allows you to remove some of the limiting factors which are preventing you from making more power (ie retarded timing etc). Often better to concentrate on getting a cool inlet charge, sorting out under-bonnet temperatures etc etc....

If you're looking at wringing out the last 1% out of your engine in an already pretty max'ed out set-up and don't mind filling up reasonably frequently with water then fair enough but most of the time it's not worth it.... That's what I've read anyway- might be wrong!!!!!

Not needing any more power!!!!just want a way to reduce intake temp if I need to,and maybe take a little stress out of the engine.

could you not use some kind of condenser like steam trains use on the exhaust port of the piston, ie on the exhaust, would mean less filling up with water

I don't know everything about this, but I am currently reading "Maximum Boost" By Corky Bell, I thought I would comment:

He does say that water injection is not the preferred method, and really is only used as a last resort...

If you want to Dilley, I will scan the section on water cooling and post it here/mail it to you?

cheers,
Steve.

Yes please that would be great, maybe woth posting on here if possible so other people can see if interested..

It's in work at the moment (I'm back in Thursday night) as thats the only time I get to read nowadays - (yes yes yes, it is quality to ge tpaid to read!) so I'll try and scan it friday for you if thats ok?
I'll post it here/U2U you when I've done it...
cheers,
Steve

quote:

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Originally posted by dilley
Yes please that would be great, maybe woth posting on here if possible so other people can see if interested..

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What about an intercooler even without a turbo if you spray water on that it will chill the air going through it.

I think water injection was used on WWII fighters like the spit & mustang and had rather a bad effect on the engines sometimes. A last ditch get the F out off there resort

If you just want to reduce intake temps then a ducted cold air feed is a good start.

Im running an intercooler, problem is its under the bonnet in front of the drivers side bulk head laying almost flat and tight to the underside of the bonnet, I have fitted a scoop over the top, My main concern is wher the air goes once through the inter cooler, I cant really duct/ put a shield round it.

Hi - water injection with 50% methenol is the way to go if you are running turbo's at high boost and experiencing detonation.

A couple of things to look out for is -
1/ Water droplets must be really fine
2/ pump must be fed through ignition to prevent any chance of it pumpig water into engine when engine not running
3/ make absolutely sure theres no chance of siphonage

Weight is not a big problem as you only need it at full boost so 2 - 3 litres is ample unless of course you're racing as with a truly powerful turbo motor on thpublic roads you are only ever on full boost for a max of 5-7 seconds a time by which time you are flying and highly illegal

Most importantly - its better to have efficient charge cooling than water injection so sort that first.

Don't expect water injection to increase power alone as already mentioned its more effectively used to control detonation. The water replaces fuel which would normally be used to cool the combustion process. As water absorbs something like 6 times more latent heat when vaporized as a side effect you maybe able to run a more spark advance or maybe an extra PSI ot two of boost.

Ideally you want a programmable system to control the amount and duration of the water injection. Its quite easy to add more water than you need and not see any adverse effects until something goes pop!

quote:

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Originally posted by RazMan
If you just want to reduce intake temps then a ducted cold air feed is a good start.

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so your saying spray the inter cooler with water externaly??

Spraying the intercooler is a common trick as it doesn't require any changes in jetting etc and simply brings down the charge temps by simple evaporation.

any ideas on how to do this?

quote:

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Originally posted by RazMan
Spraying the intercooler is a common trick as it doesn't require any changes in jetting etc and simply brings down the charge temps by simple evaporation.

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I used to use some washer jets (the type that atomise the water) aimed at the intercooler. This was connected to a small water pump with a manual switch on the dash - or you could connect a thermal switch somewhere to control it properly.
I just used to push the switch before going up the strip at Santa Pod to help with heat soak.

did you monitor intake temp with and without the jets to see the results??

My next problem is monitoring intake temp because I haven't a clue what its doing!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by dilley
any ideas on how to do this?

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quote:

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Originally posted by dilley
so your saying spray the inter cooler with water externaly??

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any ideas where I can find a charge temp gauge and sender???

You haven't said (that I've read anyway) what engine you have.

With his 450bhp 2.0 Cossie powered 7 I'm not sure Hicost even bothers with water injection any more.

You sure you need it?

Cheers,
James

blackbird, it was only an idea, but after having a look at a water spray idea I think I may go for that, I still need to find an inlet temp gauge and seder which im struggling with.

quote:

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Originally posted by dilley
blackbird, it was only an idea, but after having a look at a water spray idea I think I may go for that, I still need to find an inlet temp gauge and seder which im struggling with.

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Have you considered moving the intercooler in front of the radiator? I am sure that will have a dramatic effect on charge temps.

quote:

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Originally posted by RazMan
Have you considered moving the intercooler in front of the radiator? I am sure that will have a dramatic effect on charge temps.

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yes I have looked at the turbobits website and it offers a lot of info, I have emailed them with some queries,

I tried fitting the intercooler in front of the rad but it gave me some overheating issues on the water side of things, I have had a look and think I can encase the intercooler and duct it down the transmission tunnel and then fit water spray.

I still need to find a damn gauge and sender

also changed to a bigger rad now and fitted the fan on the back, but I hve no room to try the intercooler in front of the rad again, I think alot of people who are building turbo conversions on bike engines are going to have some of the problems I have, Its not a case of bolt on a turbo and drive!!!

If you are forced to have the intercooler above the enging then maybe some sealed ducting would improve things. As far as I can see you are directing air towards the intercooler but you really need to seal the sides to force the air through it.

dpo you mean seal the sides up to the bonnet to force the air through, or seal around underneath to duct the air away????

The critical side is on the intake - it doesn't matter too much where the air exits as long as it can.

I suspect the net airflow through the intercooler as it is now mounted will be very small, you might even be getting hot air comming out The engine compartment in a Locost is a high pressure area, getting air out is just as important as getting it in.

Might be a good idea to stick the intercooler back in front of the radiator and then make sure you are getting adequate airflow out of the engine bay (could use intercooler scoop mounted backwards maybe?).

The intercooler should be in front of the radiator as it will not actually be heating up the air (that is assuming there is no turbo fitted...) when water is sprayed on it, the water evaporates quickly in the high airflow and the fins get chilled. No heating of the air occurs, rather the opposite and the air gets a lot damper too, so the radiator behind benefits as well, since the process repeats on it.

over use of commas,,,,,,I know




[Edited on 27/3/07 by Mr Whippy]

Although a cheaper option I wouldn’t for the wet spray intercooler idea with the intercooler mounted where yours is, this method is usually used for front mounted intercoolers.
Back in my GT Turbo days the most effective method was to use a charge cooler mounted on the bulkhead just above the turbo, in fact the one pace made for the job would probably fit perfectly. Will dig out some photos later,

GT turbo’s those were the good old dayz!!!

you say that you now have a bigger radiator?

Is there any chance that you could move it over somewhat so the the intercooler could sit in the nosecone aswell - I know they're never going to fit alongside each other, but at least then they would both benefit from the coolest air possible - I had a Lancia Delta Turbo and it had the intercooler mounted off to the side, and only benefited from the frontal air a little, but I suspect that it was better than mounting elsewhere due to engine bay heat?

All above only speculation, but thought I would throw it out there!!!

Steve

Dilley, how much space/clearance do you have underneath the bonnet? One random idea I've just had is this, and it may take a bit of explaining. The under bonnet is a high pressure area on a 7, so air is trying to get out, rather than in. So, if you can duct cold(ish/er) from the front somewhere, through a tube or possibly a tube formed as part of the bonnet (may have sealing issues?) and then have the intercooler lying near horizontal under the bonnet and duct the air stright up and out through a naca duct to gain the best of the push from the high pressure and the suck from the low pressure above the bonnet. This may allow you to use funny shaped tubes, ie wide but flat, to make best use of the available space, and maximise airflow.

Or rather than out of the bonnet, you could use any spare space along side the engine for the pipe work. Shouldn't matter where it is, as long as it gets a cold air feed and is sealed.

[Edited on 27/3/07 by DIY Si]

getting the air in shouldn't be a problem with a bonnet scoop, Its directing the air out of the engine bay thats the problem, I also have dax side panels fitted to the car with the origional side panel cut away, this should pull the air out of the engine bay???

They the panels with the big gap at the back end? If so, why not just get an intercooler the same size as the gap and fit it in there? Just need to make a duct for the front in a 4 sided pyramid kind of way and add some large pipe to the front. You could even turn the cooler slightly in the hole to allow a bigger one if needed, thus increasing its efficiency a bit at the same time.

quote:

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Originally posted by dilley
getting the air in shouldn't be a problem with a bonnet scoop, Its directing the air out of the engine bay thats the problem, I also have dax side panels fitted to the car with the origional side panel cut away, this should pull the air out of the engine bay???

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I am already pulling the air out through the side panels!!they are the biggest vents you could ever get.

But you are trying to force air into the same (rear) section of the bonnet. Airflow is the key.

how can the air be forced in through the side panels? surley with a rear opening they act as a vacume?? pulling all the air out of the engine bay rather than it circulating in the engine bay????am Imissing something???

The air flows in from the front and will try to leave by any means possible, so it may actually be flowing OUT through the IC vent (Rathe than IN as I assume you want?), as well as out the side.
Whilst it may be a bit more expensive, have you got space for 2 smaller IC in the front somewhere? Ie use a deep, but narrow rad and put ICs either side, or just one deep one next to it, splitting the better cold flow you get in the nose cone.

[Edited on 27/3/07 by DIY Si]

anything at the front is not possible, if Ican duct the air from round the intercooler down the tunnel will this help??I have air from the front and air from the scoop, I thought that this should vent out of the side panels and tunnel.........the intercooler is tight to the bonnet, so for air to escape through the scoop it would hve to pass thrpough the intercooler.

other option is a fan on the bottom of the intercooler????

[Edited on 27/3/07 by dilley]

Whilst there may be air flowing through the IC, if it comes from the engine bay it will be quite hot, so probably won't help much. Otherwise any airflow is better than none, so as long as you can force air to travel from the front, through the IC and out somewhere, then jobs a good 'un. Forcing it down the tunnel will also help keep you warm.

leave off the engine bay side panels altogether as you don't even need them. Once mines though it's SVA their in the bin.



[Edited on 28/3/07 by Mr Whippy]